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Mikvah for spiritual reason
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sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 11:53 am
I saw this article yesterday, and it raised a question that I've been wondering about for awhile:

http://www.cross-currents.com/.....desh/

(The article goes into a lot of other topics that I don't want to discuss here.) The specific part I'm discussing is where the author criticizes promoting mikvah use for "non-traditional" purposes, I.e. tevillah to mark a life cycle event, recovery from an illness, etc. I don't know much about this movement but I guess it's championed by organizations like Mayim Hayyim (http://www.mayyimhayyim.org/) which I realize is not orthodox-affiliated, but that some other orthodox women's groups are also supporters.

Here's the relevant part of the article:

"There is a radical view of mikveh and of modesty in general which has become embedded in Open Orthodoxy and which threatens to compromise the sanctity of mikveh and further erode matters of personal privacy. This seems very strange, and it is indeed incredibly odd, but this phenomenon must be addressed, as it can damage that which we seek to and must protect ... the new “mikveh movement” to “reclaim and reframe” mikveh use, including tevillah (immersion) for non-traditional purposes, such as to mark school graduations, birthdays, anniversaries, the completion of medical treatments, and all sorts of personal milestones. Many graduates and students of Yeshivat Maharat are actively involved in promoting unconventional mikveh use."

So, leaving out any debates about Open Orthodoxy, Yeshivat Maharat, etc., I'm wondering: is there anything that actually prohibits or discourages women from using the mikvah for non-taharat hamishpacha purposes? Women clearly do toivel for "spiritual" reasons (I.e. non-niddah related)-- tevilah before Yom Kippur, or tevilah during the 9th month of pregnancy. If there's nothing wrong with these instances, why would it be wrong for a woman to toivel for some other personal or spiritual, I.e. non-traditional reason?

I'm genuinely wondering if this is actually something that is discouraged in sources, or if there are specific concerns surrounding it.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 12:02 pm
I'm writing off the cuff here. Maybe I should wait to formulate my thoughts better. Here goes:
It is a great bracha and built into the system Hashem created, that we find mitzvos meaningful. We are not merely servants and robots but serve with meaning, depth, and love. But we serve on Hashem's terms.
That said, there is a vast arena of reshus, where we have the leeway and freedom to act according to our retzonos. There's hiddur mitzva, the zeh keli of life. The question is, are we taking a mitzvah and modeling it to our terms, or fulfilling the mitzvah in a beautiful way. Are we abusing tashmishei kedusha by imposing our will and definition of their use?
Perhaps I should research the concept of mikvah. But my understanding is it a tashmish kedusha as much as a lulav, or a shmurah matza, and should be used in the ways we are told to use it. I don't know what kind of leeway we are given, but this makes me uncomfortable. I wish all the people who want to use it "off label" (btw, how many are men?) inner peace and ample opportunity for meaningful spiritual experiences.
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 12:30 pm
Huh???

But men constantly toivel for general spiritual purposes. Their tevilas tend to all be off label as far as I understand this. And as OP point out, women do toivel for things like 9th month segula.

This sounds very strange. I used to think that some charedi views were that anything not clearly permissible might be forbidden. But now the move is to the idea that even permitted things are forbidden unless required?

This sounds to me like just disliking anything that some people do. Honestly anything that will make women like the mitzvah of mikvah more, which so many women struggle with, sounds like a good thing (so long as halahically acceptable.)
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 12:31 pm
Is the writer of the article a man? (Don't want to read, don't want to click.)
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happybeingamom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 12:45 pm
Is there a value in doing something because it feels good. Meaning what does the woman actually gain by going to the Mikva for a life cycle event.

There are so many wonderful things that one can do for a life cycle event for example tzedoka, chesed, working on a halacha that you have a hard time with (loshon horah for example). Doing something that has no basis what does it accomplish? If you want to do something that makes you feel good to celebrate do something you like. I personally don't go for making things up and then say it is spiritual.
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sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 12:49 pm
Yes, it's written by R. Avrohom Gordimer.

The article goes into a lot of different arguments and is somewhat of a screed-- there are valid points, though most of them seem self-evident (like it not being halachically acceptable to promote mikvah use for gay partners to celebrate an anniversary, or for non-halachic conversions, etc.)

But the fact that he also specifically highlighted women using the mikvah for any reason outside of taharat hamishpacha as wrong (no idea what he would say about tevilah pre-YK or during pregnancy) was what made me stop to think.

The only legitimate reason against it that the article gives is that it would be a burden on women's mikvaot. But it would be up to an individual mikvah to decide when and how they might want to accommodate it.

It's a question I've been wondering about recently because I'm on a mikvah building committee in my community, and they are trying to get non-orthodox institutions to support the effort (the mikvah is being built by an orthodox institution). If you're trying to get non-orthodox women to care about a mikvah, would it be wrong to highlight spiritual uses of a mikvah, in addition to halachic uses?
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sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 12:52 pm
Quote:
Is there a value in doing something because it feels good. Meaning what does the woman actually gain by going to the Mikva for a life cycle event.


But lots of women toivel in the 9th month of pregnancy, just as a custom, with no halachic basis. How is that different from toiveling for some other reason?
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happybeingamom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 1:13 pm
sweetpotato wrote:
Quote:
Is there a value in doing something because it feels good. Meaning what does the woman actually gain by going to the Mikva for a life cycle event.


But lots of women toivel in the 9th month of pregnancy, just as a custom, with no halachic basis. How is that different from toiveling for some other reason?


I hear you, I never did that personally. However a woman who keeps Neiros, Challah and Niddah is a zchus to have an easy labor. Many woman will take challa in their 9th month, make sure to bentch licht with better Kavanah and perhaps going to the mikva symbolizes their keeping of taharas mishpacha.

There are so many segulahs today I can't keep track.

For legitimate Segulahs there is a mekor so one can look it up. The book Eim Habaonim Smecha for pregnancy and childbirth I think is a good place to start.

My philosophy is keep halacha, daven, chesed and learning Torah is the best Segulah (my Rav says the same). I am half litvak and half yekke so you see where I am coming from.

Where I live we don't have enough women mikva's so I would be against it because we don't have the resources. I am not going to sit longer in the waiting room for someones so called spiritual experience.
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happy7




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 2:08 pm
I don't know enough to answer the op's question- I would have to look things up in seforim and speak to people who know more, but, I do want to point out that Erev Yom Kippur I called the Rav to ask if a single woman could use the mikvah on Erev Yom Kippur. The answer I received is that by sefardim it is the acceptable minhag for single women to go on Erev YK, but minhag ashkenaz and minhag Chassidim (particularly minhag Chabad) is that (even on) Erev YK, it is only for married or once-married women.

To be honest, I was extremely surprised because I thought I had seen single women there on Erev YK. I had even already told the person who asked me that she could go. But, then I said let me double check with the Rav.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 31 2014, 4:00 pm
sweetpotato wrote:

It's a question I've been wondering about recently because I'm on a mikvah building committee in my community, and they are trying to get non-orthodox institutions to support the effort (the mikvah is being built by an orthodox institution). If you're trying to get non-orthodox women to care about a mikvah, would it be wrong to highlight spiritual uses of a mikvah, in addition to halachic uses?


Does your mikvah have a halachic advisory board?

And sorry to have caused you to Scratching Head , Peanut. But I did get the ball rolling ;-)
And I thought happybeingamom had a good point.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 01 2014, 1:59 pm
This is a very interesting topic and I'm not sure where I stand on it.
On the one hand, I understand the reluctance to endorse what has come to be identified with other streams of Judaism, especially when the reason for immersion relates to something halachically problematic. Personally I also find it hard to relate to the motivation, not being at all "touchy feely" in my approach to religion.
OTOH, I can't help but feel that some of the opposition to the practice of spirtual immersion stems from an innate, knee-jerk hostility, or at least suspicion, that some more right-wing groups have of anything that can be viewed as empowering of women in the area of religion. I think that the idea of women appropriating mikvah, embuing it with personal significance and transforming it into a ritual initiated on their own volition might be subliminally or even overtly perceived as subversive.
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happybeingamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 01 2014, 9:46 pm
etky wrote:
This is a very interesting topic and I'm not sure where I stand on it.
On the one hand, I understand the reluctance to endorse what has come to be identified with other streams of Judaism, especially when the reason for immersion relates to something halachically problematic. Personally I also find it hard to relate to the motivation, not being at all "touchy feely" in my approach to religion.
OTOH, I can't help but feel that some of the opposition to the practice of spirtual immersion stems from an innate, knee-jerk hostility, or at least suspicion, that some more right-wing groups have of anything that can be viewed as empowering of women in the area of religion. I think that the idea of women appropriating mikvah, embuing it with personal significance and transforming it into a ritual initiated on their own volition might be subliminally or even overtly perceived as subversive.


How would this empower women? This is a touchy feel good thing, nothing more.
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cookiejar




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 01 2014, 11:40 pm
I really think that using toivelling in a mikvah to commemorate something like a graduation or birthday(!) is demeaning to the mitzvah that Hashem gave us. Follow the rules, and use it as intended - I wonder in an ironic kind of way if the ppl who feel so connected that they want to use it to celebrate their birthdays actually observe TH laws to the letter of the law... (sure I'm opening a can of worms here Smile) I just can't find any kind of distortion or misuse of a mitzvah as totally GENUINE-sounding, for some reason...
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chaos




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 02 2014, 1:03 am
I think this question & answer from Yoatzot.org is relevant to the discussion http://www.yoatzot.org/question.php?id=8979 [bold is my emphasis]

Quote:
Is it Halachically acceptable to immerse in the mikveh for the purpose of spiritual renewal and cleansing after undergoing chemo & radiation?
thank you.
***
Dear questioner,

Thank you for your question.

In addition to when she is becoming tehorah, a married woman is permitted to immerse in a mikveh whenever she is tehorah already. Therefore, she may immerse specifically for spiritual purposes as part of recovery from chemotherapy and radiation, so long as she is not niddah when immersing.

Single women do not generally immerse in the mikveh, even for spiritual purposes. A single woman wishing to immerse in this situation would need to ask a specific halachic question.
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Dina_B613




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 02 2014, 1:27 am
The mikvah is a very personal thing, so judging the ways that other people use it seems unnecessary and too far reaching. How would you even make a policy around non-TH uses? How does decide what are legitimate and non-legitimate non-TH ways to use the mikvah? Would you really want a rabbi saying: "Judy, it's not OK for you to go to the mikvah to mark your daughter's getting bat-mitzvahed, but Sarah, go ahead and use the mikvah because you've had a hysterectomy."

I think that using the mikvah for non-TH issues can be really powerful. After leaving my husband, I've wanted to go to put that part of my life with my husband behind me but haven't had an opportunity. A close friend of mine was raped (in a synagogue), she went to the mikvah a few months later as a way of moving on and making her body feel like her own. She wanted to do something Jewish to take it back since she has been violated in a shul. It was a very positive, empowering experience for her.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 02 2014, 1:54 am
There is simply nothing wrong with women toiveling whenever she feels like it, as long as she doesn't make a bracha. Men do it all the time.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 02 2014, 4:18 am
happybeingamom wrote:
Is there a value in doing something because it feels good. Meaning what does the woman actually gain by going to the Mikva for a life cycle event.

There are so many wonderful things that one can do for a life cycle event for example tzedoka, chesed, working on a halacha that you have a hard time with (loshon horah for example). Doing something that has no basis what does it accomplish? If you want to do something that makes you feel good to celebrate do something you like. I personally don't go for making things up and then say it is spiritual.


Mikva has often been described as a physically transformative experience. Even halachically, mikva is the passage between one metaphysical state - tumah - to another - tahara. I can see that because of the water=birth connection, women might relate to immersion as a symbolic act of rebirth after a major life event in a way that the fulfillment of other mitzvot cannot approach. It is a spiritual more than religious experience, in the same way that I imagine it must be nowadays for men who immerse to feel cleansed (as apart from ancient times when tumah was an issue for men too).
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amother


 

Post Sun, Nov 02 2014, 4:29 am
I think you have to be very careful in extending use of a ritual item or action beyond it's intended realm.

For example, the Reform synagogue on our block blow shofar on the shabbat leading up to both Rosh Hashana and YK for thsoe who will not attend on the relevant days. Mechallel shabbat by mis using a ritual item. It would not be hard to imagine our mikvaot taken over by similar practices, such that the original intent and meaning is overlooked or sidelined: "You're just here for your monthly visit, well I'm here to celebrate my chemo finishing/ graduation/ first grandchild/ making a chasuna/ new sheital."

There is a ritual for celebrating coming through life threatening situations, such as surgery/ chemo etc, it is reciting birchat hagomel and is done in the public arena, thanking Hashem for saving you and bringing you through a crisis. How is mikvah better than that?

(Anon as many people know about the reform shul round the corner to us and I don't want to out myself!)
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 02 2014, 4:48 am
amother wrote:
I think you have to be very careful in extending use of a ritual item or action beyond it's intended realm.

For example, the Reform synagogue on our block blow shofar on the shabbat leading up to both Rosh Hashana and YK for thsoe who will not attend on the relevant days. Mechallel shabbat by mis using a ritual item. It would not be hard to imagine our mikvaot taken over by similar practices, such that the original intent and meaning is overlooked or sidelined: "You're just here for your monthly visit, well I'm here to celebrate my chemo finishing/ graduation/ first grandchild/ making a chasuna/ new sheital."

There is a ritual for celebrating coming through life threatening situations, such as surgery/ chemo etc, it is reciting birchat hagomel and is done in the public arena, thanking Hashem for saving you and bringing you through a crisis. How is mikvah better than that?

(Anon as many people know about the reform shul round the corner to us and I don't want to out myself!)


Not better- it's just that some women might crave the physical, transformative and perhaps the private experience that mikva uniquely affords. If there is no halachic grounds to deny them this then why not allow it? Regarding the technical difficulties that this might create, I'm sure that solutions could be found.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 02 2014, 5:12 am
A few random points.

Money in = power in decision making.

In one place I lived in, the mikvah was paid for by cross denominational community resources (Federation, I think). They were therefore obligated to permit non halachic conversions.

The frum response was to charge a 2 year membership for every conversion, in the hopes that the married women might take advantage of it (I think it was for men, too, but I don't remember); and to put up a big sign saying that only halachic conversions would be considered valid by everyone. It led to a fair amount of resentment on all sides.

The concept of privacy for TH is at risk when you meet others in the waiting room who are there for any and every reason. There are many more people who could potentially know your private business, and are inclined to be chatty and ask why you are there.

In another community I lived in, the only day school needed money and turned to non frum communal sources. The result was that the day school survived, but had to agree to adapt. "Shelo asani isha" was an issue; I believe in the end, the compromise was for school davenng to start with pesukei dezimra.

OTOH, Where I live now, there is nearby a non frum mikvah that is used for everything from celebration of beginning menses to marking divorce to pre-wedding use by gay couples. Some LW women also use it for TH.

The competition for mikvah dollars may have made things more challenging for the halachic use only mikvahs. Fund raising to replace an antiquated plumbing system in the tradtitional mikvah is going very slowly.

There are no easy answers.
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