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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
amother
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 Wed, Aug 20 2014, 8:11 pm
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Actually ytt is being more careful now on who they take in.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 8:26 pm
| glutenless wrote: | To the people who are blaming "working" people and saying why would you move to Lakewood. First of all, as other posters wrote, there are a lot of people who learned in kollel and dress perfectly tznius and cannot get into schools. There is just not enough space. The classes are already huge and the schools understandably do not want to add classes.
Also, Lakewood is not like Monroe and Skevre. There the chasidus started the community. Lakewood had a frum community besides for Bmg. Many working parents in Lakewood today grew up here. Some of their fathers learned in BMG, some did not. A lot of other working people went to yeshivos here when they were teenagers or have other reasons why they want to live here. Why shouldn't they? Why do all the schools have to be so yeshivish? Why did they change Ahavas Torah to Bnos Yaakov and try to make the day school into a yeshivish school? Besides, there are schools for people who are not yeshivish. There's Ytt and Bnos Rivkah. When are we going to realize that being frum has nothing to do with learning in kollel or dressing according to the strictest rules? |
I can't like this enough. Lakewood was first a modern orthodox community and then BMG came in.
Another question I have is why when there is a problem with a student or the school is afraid of the family's haskafah and suddenly said family offers 30 grand all of a sudden the problem with haskafah disappears. And I know first hand people that this happens to so don't tell me it's not true.
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 8:44 pm
| amother wrote: | I can't like this enough. Lakewood was first a modern orthodox community and then BMG came in.
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Calling our Lakewood historian E.G.: I know BMG came in during/after the war. Can you tell us about the community at that point? Considering that many big communities, such as Baltimore, didn't even have high schools for the kids till the forties and beyond, I'm curious.
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 8:47 pm
| glutenless wrote: | To the people who are blaming "working" people and saying why would you move to Lakewood. First of all, as other posters wrote, there are a lot of people who learned in kollel and dress perfectly tznius and cannot get into schools. There is just not enough space. The classes are already huge and the schools understandably do not want to add classes.
Also, Lakewood is not like Monroe and Skevre. There the chasidus started the community. Lakewood had a frum community besides for Bmg. Many working parents in Lakewood today grew up here. Some of their fathers learned in BMG, some did not. A lot of other working people went to yeshivos here when they were teenagers or have other reasons why they want to live here. Why shouldn't they? Why do all the schools have to be so yeshivish? Why did they change Ahavas Torah to Bnos Yaakov and try to make the day school into a yeshivish school? Besides, there are schools for people who are not yeshivish. There's Ytt and Bnos Rivkah. When are we going to realize that being frum has nothing to do with learning in kollel or dressing according to the strictest rules? |
Back in the simpler days, like the 70s and maybe into the 80s, the population was so small that the schools were "community schools". It may have helped that the community was somewhat on the same page. Even the families that were no longer in kollel still had the same goals and lifestyle. As the population grew, there was a need for more schools. And more and more. This is what I thought the starting point was.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 8:49 pm
The original Lakewood was real modern orthodox. There are still some old timers left. There is one lawyer who works on Madison Avenue who always gives me a whole history of the whole old Lakewood. Bmg chased the modern orthodox out .
Also when bmg started they took off one room for Bais faiga and the girls were in the same building as the yeshiva. Can u imagine doing that today?
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amother
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 9:33 pm
1) I believe I acknowledged the space constraints issue. However I do not understand how the schools, the Rabbonim, or the Askanim can be blamed for it. If anything the combination of the school's the
Rabbonim, and the askonim have done and are doing everything they could. School's have added class after class, the Rabbonim have done thier utmost to recruit people to open new school's and askonim have done everything they could to shore up financial backing for them.
2) Regarding whether or not "working people are the problem".
Ch"V No jewish family is a "problem". The point I was trying to make is simply that the majority of the schools that are currently in town were opened and funded by people attempting to impart a certain hashkofa and lifestyle to thier children.
You may think hemline's are not that important.
However the one's who opened, funded and run the school do, as do the overwhelming majority of the parent body.
You may think a"yeshivish lifestyle" is not that impotortant.
Again the one's who opened, funded, and run the schools do, as do the overwhelming majority of the parent body.
So why is it a good thing to have families in the school who openly do not espouse the school's hashkofar nor do they care for the value system the school is trying to impart.
How is that a good thing for the school?
How is that a good thing for the parents?
How is that a good thing for the child?
3) If you state there are school's that are more "liberal" shall we say then that's great then that's where you should send your children. And BTW Bnos Rivka is more liberal and at several time's when it was in danger of closing it was specifically helped a great deal by Rabbonim and Askonim in town specifically so there should be a school for families that do not wish for a "yeshivish" lifestyle.
However if a school has specific Internet policies which they make no secret of, specific tznius standards which they make no secret of and they teach the girls in thier care this is the correct halacha, this is how we pasken. If they teach that the ideal is that at a minimum a girl should want to start off her married years with her husband in Kollel
Well then if you personally do not agree witht he Hashkofa wich the school has openly siad they are teaching then I don't see why the school benefit's form your child going to it. I don't see how you benefit from having your child go to a school that is teaching your child a halachic system, a hashkafic system, and a value system you do not hold by. And most of all I think the child suffer's from in a snse being taught two conflicting things for years in a row.
And if that is indeed the school's policies then what is wrong with them trying to ensure that they a) Keep up a school reputation that allow's the to attract the "clients" they are seeking, b) the parent's are looking to have ahome in keeping with what they are teaching.
And if a family is not looking for what the school is teaching then they should not want to send their daughter there.
Like I said I care very much for Chassidim and I care very much for MO . I try to care very much for all Jews.
However I would not move to KJ since I do not want to be chassidish, nor do I want to run a chssidishe home, nor do I teach my children a chassidish value system.
Nor would I move to Teaneck since I do not want to run my home with a MO hashkofa.
I live in Lakewood and send my children to school's in Lakewood because I want them to be taught what the school's they are going too teach.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 9:39 pm
| amother wrote: | The original Lakewood was real modern orthodox. There are still some old timers left. There is one lawyer who works on Madison Avenue who always gives me a whole history of the whole old Lakewood. Bmg chased the modern orthodox out .
Also when bmg started they took off one room for Bais faiga and the girls were in the same building as the yeshiva. Can u imagine doing that today? |
Perhaps the lawyer can tell you what BMG did to "chase" the MO out?
I know it was not close down Bezalel day school since that school closed simply because there was not that many people left who wanted to send their children their.
Are people obligated to send their children to a MO school?
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amother
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 10:45 pm
I know people from the yeshiva were sorry to see Betzalel go (for reasons besides for all the fighting that followed). It served such an important purposed, and unfortunately there are very special people who are integral part of Lakewood today who don't have schools for their children. They wouldn't fee comfortable in the current choices. It was a big loss.
But for a lot of people struggling with schools Betzalel wouldn't have been an option.
There are some wonderful old timers still in town.
R' Levovitz a'h - the past rav of Sons of Israel - used to go door to door begging parents to send their kids to Betzalel for no cost. Many of their children are frum today because of him.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 10:51 pm
BMG was also very good to a lot of the old timers and they had a lot of respect for the yeshiva. My DH grew up in Lakewood and was close to a lot of old timers (believe it or not Rabbi Katz from 6th street still has his name on a seat in Sons of Israel where he grew up).
I saw the yeshiva took care of a lot of the elderly when they were all alone. there are people who grew up in old time Lakewood who eat weekly by roshei yeshiva and poseks in town. Residents of the Elenor Levovitz building eat regular by members of the BMG staff as well. There are still a few who live near yeshiva and from the ones I know there are no bad feelings.
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monseychick
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:12 pm
| amother wrote: | I can't like this enough. Lakewood was first a modern orthodox community and then BMG came in.
Another question I have is why when there is a problem with a student or the school is afraid of the family's haskafah and suddenly said family offers 30 grand all of a sudden the problem with haskafah disappears. And I know first hand people that this happens to so don't tell me it's not true. |
"Cesef yaavor es ha kol" What are you trying to say that Shlomo hamelech didnt already say
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amother
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Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:42 pm
| amother wrote: | Perhaps the lawyer can tell you what BMG did to "chase" the MO out?
I know it was not close down Bezalel day school since that school closed simply because there was not that many people left who wanted to send their children their.
Are people obligated to send their children to a MO school? |
Once Betzalel closed down, there was no more checks and balances in place, OTOH, its not like a very chasidish kehilla where the Rebbe makes sure everyone is cared for either..
So you have a very ugly situation which only get worse..
Let everyone but the Kletsker bochurim starve to death...
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amother
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:11 am
| amother wrote: | Once Betzalel closed down, there was no more checks and balances in place, OTOH, its not like a very chasidish kehilla where the Rebbe makes sure everyone is cared for either..
So you have a very ugly situation which only get worse..
Let everyone but the Kletsker bochurim starve to death... |
What in the world does any of this mean?
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amother
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 1:26 am
| monseychick wrote: | | "Cesef yaavor es ha kol" What are you trying to say that Shlomo hamelech didnt already say |
I am unaware of school's that turned down family's fr hashkafic reason's and then accepted them because of money. Thankfully in the school my children go to I am fully confident for a number of first hand reason's that it does not happen.
However I would think that in some school's that are pressured with budget's and the like it would have happened and probably does happen. However in my opinion it's wrong for a number of reason's not the least of which is the child that is being put in a terrible situation, basically that child is being put into a situation where they are being taught conflicting messages for their entire childhood.
I think that's terrible.
The fact's are that a child's parent's are the main role model's for a child througout their childhood.
How can parent's willingly put thier child into a situation where they no in advance their child will be taught on a daily basis that much of their parent's lifestyle and hashkofah is wrong.?
I think the parent's are wrong for sending their child to such a school and the school is wrong for accepting them and allowing them to put their child in such a situation no matter how much money is offered.
I am aware of situation's where there was only a couple of slot's left in the school and they basically went to the highest bidder.
In such a case I really think the basic question of whether it is the right thing or not is pretty tough.
From the school's perspective I can hear them saying.
"We can only accept 1 or 2 children, the rich person's children have as much a right as any other plus if we accept them they will give us enough monet so we will be able to cover the costs of 1 or 2 children from poor families. So really by accepting them they benefit as well as the children of poorer families".
I think that's a valid point.
However if the school's owner's are making a very nice living off the school and the school's cost's are covered anyway's ( which in spite of all the talk is a rarity) then I feel that it is wrong in this case as well and there should be a lottery for the last slot's.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 7:38 am
I know a parent that switched from Bnos rivkah to Bnos yaakov for $150,000. The father wears jeans which is against their rules and they have rejected people because the father didn't wear a hat to the interview and now they take someone with jeans.
I know that the school is close to bankruptcy but where are your standards?
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Emotional
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 7:44 am
| amother wrote: | I know a parent that switched from Bnos rivkah to Bnos yaakov for $150,000. The father wears jeans which is against their rules and they have rejected people because the father didn't wear a hat to the interview and now they take someone with jeans.
I know that the school is close to bankruptcy but where are your standards? |
Now why is this story more believable than the cufflinks story?
And as I said, if the parents wanted Bnos Yaakov so badly, the father couldn't give up his jeans?
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saw50st8
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 8:02 am
| Emotional wrote: | Now why is this story more believable than the cufflinks story?
And as I said, if the parents wanted Bnos Yaakov so badly, the father couldn't give up his jeans? |
Because denim is a line. Its a line more so for men then women (I know plenty of yeshivish women who would wear a jean skirt, but not yeshivish men).
I have a question about Lakewood schools: if there are so many people who need to push into a school because they don't fully agree with the stricter yeshivish hashkafa, why don't they open a school that caters to "lighter" Yeshivish? Presumably, many working parents would really be in this category so aside from start up funding, it should be easier to keep the school in service.
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Maya
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 8:12 am
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In the Chassidish world, cuff links are considered "bummy" and would definitely be the basis of rejection into mainstream schools. Maybe that trend has carried over to Lakewood.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 8:17 am
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Six years ago Chayala Hertzka wanted to open up a more with it Bklyn type of school and still yeshivish and the rosh hayeshivos in this town stopped it. It's not so simple. By he rosh hayeshivos are still trying to keep this town as right wing as possible. They are losing because the town grew too fast and within the next year or two there will be more without schools opening up but at one point it wasn't allowed.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 8:22 am
Lakewood schools rejects parents for the dumbest reasons unless there is money. There are so many applicants that if thy hear one bad thing about a family they are out they won't even research if its true or not because they feel if there is smoke there is fire and they are not lacking applicants so why research if its true or not.
Also every school in town wants to be as yeshivish as the next and they are all competing to be considered the most yeshivish. Bits pathetic but when one school makes a Tznius rule the next year the other school makes an even stricter Tznius rule.
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amother
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Thu, Aug 21 2014, 9:29 am
There is a school that was opened to accept everyone. And it did as far as I know.
But then people started banging down their doors and they had way more applicants then they could take so they got more selective within that pool of parents.
As long as there are more people then schools the schools have the upper hand and can choose exactly who they want. That is the bottom line
And if a school is going bankrupt, or can't pay their salaries an offer of money is very enticing.
(Its like if someone can't afford their mortgage one week and 2 people ask to stay in their basement for a week, and one offers to pay as if it was a hotel, they would most likely take the guest with the money if it would help them pay their mortgage another month).
A backlash to the school is that many people who do give money when getting in give much less in donations over the course of their child's education then those who don't give money up front.
But in the end, as someone else said, kids who end up in a school with the wrong hashkafa end up as the karbons.
- a parent who just got into school in July.
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