Mishpacha -p23 - Can You Afford this Shidduch?

Frumdoc

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 5:50 pm

I thought that one of the main points being made in the article was that people no longer expect to work hard at very much in order to make a living. He mentioned the higher standards of living that young people come form, and expect to maintain despite the lack of a high paying career that requires hard work and dedication to achieve financial stability.

To get anywhere in any profession, kollel or any pursuit takes times, dedication and a lot of effort, including a career, a big business and any other non klei hakadosh area of expertise. Accepting that significant effort must be made to enable adequate income is hard, especially when any dedication to or excessive effort made in pursuit of "secular" knowledge or expertise is belittled and frowned on.

I think educating our boys from an early age to think about and prepare for a career outside kollel/ teaching gemara etc would prevent these financial demands made on parents and avoid the problems when an untrained, inexperienced man leaves the kollel environment and is faced with competing with those 10 years younger, with good education and experience, for the same jobs. Reality is tough, preparing for the inevitable makes it easier to hold the family together and cope with the financial demands of orthodox life.

Doesn't have to be kollel or work, programs exist for dual expertise learning and training so that young men at least have a chance to support their own families without going door to door collecting, which is not a career pathway in anyone's definition of the term.

mirror

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 7:23 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

I think educating our boys from an early age to think about and prepare for a career outside kollel/ teaching gemara etc would prevent these financial demands made on parents and avoid the problems when an untrained, inexperienced man leaves the kollel environment and is faced with competing with those 10 years younger, with good education and experience, for the same jobs. Reality is tough, preparing for the inevitable makes it easier to hold the family together and cope with the financial demands of orthodox life.

Doesn't have to be kollel or work, programs exist for dual expertise learning and training so that young men at least have a chance to support their own families without going door to door collecting, which is not a career pathway in anyone's definition of the term.

But aren't some schools in Lakewood eliminating secular studies altogether? How will this idea ever catch on?

saw50st8

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 7:54 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

And should the boys who are really cut out for chinuch only marry girls who can bring in a decent salary? And should the young women who are really cut out for chinuch only look for boys who will start working right away?

In a system that dots all the I's and crosses all the t's, I'm not sure why this wouldn't be a check mark.

You aren't talking about breaking up two people who have fallen in love. You are talking about rejecting a shidduch before even going out. That happens all the time.

I do happen to think if a man wants to learn long term, he should be looking for a wife with the means to fully support him.

amother

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 8:56 pm

I think that these issues are 100% the fault of the boys yeshivas. My husband went to a very mainstream yeshiva with a great english program and where many of the boys continued on to college, but he said that the yeshiva pushed the boys to aspire to learning full time, they said that learning comes first and parnassa is secondary. While I agree with that ideologically, it's not very realistic. Additionally, I also agree that it is very difficult for a single guy to juggle work or school and learning and keep himself growing spiritually, BUT the real problem is that the yeshivas make it even harder for these guys since many of them won't accept a guy into beis medrash if he's also in college, so then the working college guys have limited places to learn if they are looking to be in a yeshiva environment. In conclusion, because of all this, we end up with two opposite extremes on the dating scene the guys that just want to learn and be supported and the guys that are working or in college and don't have much of a connection with a yeshiva.

amother

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:18 pm

When my sibs entered shidduchim we sat them down and told them that even living simply in Lakewood (where many things are cheaper) and having no kids, you cannot survive on less than 3-4K a month WITHOUT SPENDING ON ANYTHING!!!!!! OTHER THAN BILLS AND SURVIVAL. (This does not include stockings, Kleenex, or emergencies.) By the time you have pre-tuition kids, that soars up to 8K. Once you're paying tuition you have to realize that you've got to be aiming for 150-200K to SURVIVE, unless you plan on using tzeddaka funds or others' funds (and in this I include the government.)

Everything in my house is craiglist or Ikea (aside from my couch and mattresses) - and I consider myself spoilt for even buying Ikea stuff new!! I pay for limited cleaning help because I'm a WAHM, know the price of every single pickle and tuna can in my grocery, buy reduced produce, bake whatever I can, buy from clearance racks and have only leased a car when B"H every single seat in our tzebruchen Buick was packed and we b'sho'ah tova need more. (and I still feel guilty about that...!) No, we don't eat rice and beans (I'm hypoglycemic, and DH is on low-carb diet supposedly), but I'll pinch a dollar until it comes between me and my sanity. When I spend a drop extra for Shabbos, I consider it chesed because my guests often need it. Health insurance and costs WITHOUT anything catastrophic B"H cost me 15-16K a year. Dental is a luxury we have learned we cannot brush off... as are vacations, which (while rare) save my sanity as a full-time mom and worker.

Oh? And both DH and I work. We're barely making it as it is, trying to pay off debt while swallowing a $900/month therapy bill, and he's thinking of going to school now. I have no idea how we will do it but G-d helps.

As has been said so eloquently above, the "SIMPLE LIFE" costs, costs, COSTS. Are these girls thinking about 8K a month pre-tuition? I don't think so.

amother

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:34 pm

amother wrote:

Honestly, that sounds like a lot.
I have a few small children (pre-tuition) and spend somewhere around there (~4000 a month or so after tax spending), and my single biggest expense is babysitting! A young couple without babysitting should be able to manage with well under $3000 a month I would think.
(I'm not on any government programs, and consider myself only moderately frugal. I don't claim to know the price of every item in my pantry.)

I'm not debating the underlying point - life costs, and there's no living on air, just quibbling over how much life costs.

amother

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:35 pm

amother wrote:

So, I live out of town, not Lakewood,but I am not so sure htat I agree withyour figures. We are a family of 7 bli ayin hara, and spend very carefully. We are successfully living on approx $5500/month, yes it is tight, yes we are not paying ful tuition, but we pay health insurance premiums etc. I just wanted to mention this to point out to those who read your post and get scared, that it can be done to live on less than $8000 a month. (or as you said $150 - 200,000). Difficult yes, impossible no.

dr. pepper

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:54 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

My theory (and I say this as a person who got married at 19, but with a degree and savings in the bank) is that girls should get married later.

Hold off on shidduchim while you establish yourself in a profession. Save the money instead of spending it frivolously. By the time you get married, you will have 1)more maturity 2)money in the bank 3)less stress of schooling 4) a decent start in a job that gives you higher earning potential since you have experience

That way, even if by child #3 you feel like you must cut back on your hours and your husband doesn't have incredible earning potential, you will still have a decent pay for the hours you do work as well as some savings to fall back on while your husband increases his capabilities of bringing in parnasa.

Sorry, didn't read the whole thread.
This is what makes me wonder: is this really what Hashem wants?

I had a great friend, from a great chashuv family. She got married and started a job. She also got pregnant right away. After her baby was born, she told me she was feeling pressured (by herself) to be on birth control because it wouldn't look good for her to get pregnant again and need to take off from her job too soon again.

Now, I am all for birth control. However, I wonder about this particular reasoning. Is that what Hashem really wanted? That her husband should be in learning but that she needed to delay having children so she can work so he can learn? Kind of sounds like being "tovel v'sheretz b'yado" like toveling in the mikvah while holding an impure bug"

Like, what is the point? Isn't this mixed up priorities?

I say this as someone who was a kollel wife for 4 wonderful years but still has some issues with the system Smile

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:56 pm

dr. pepper wrote:

What makes you think that having closely spaced kids trumps learning?

amother

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 10:14 pm

Quote:

WOW!! How in the world do you DO that? We sat down and listed every single expense that's not cut-out-able (Car insurance, gas, diapers, food, rent, health insurance costs PLUS premiums, gas-electric-water, Yom Tov, therapy) and there's no way it was even close to 5500. And a family of 7? With partial tuition?! How in the world do you survive? I feel like I'm choking tight on 8K-9K, three pairs of tights and all - I am flabbergasted.

sky

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 10:32 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

But aren't some schools in Lakewood eliminating secular studies altogether? How will this idea ever catch on?

since Lakewood Yeshiva was founded by R' Aahron, Secular studies was never allowed in high school yeshiva. Its not a new thing.
Some newer schools have started, or the older ones that teach secular studies are outside of Lakewood boundaries.
My DH grew up in Lakewood and he and his siblings were sent outside of Lakewood to high school to have a secular education.

MaBelleVie wrote:

I would also love to see the breakdown for a family of 7 living on 5500 a month.

Just recently on imamother someone broke down how her family lives on 5000. they had a few children, not in the NY area. Maybe she will share on this thread.
I have a few family members that probably make about 30,000 - 40,000 per year with a few kids.
I have no clue how they do it, but they do (with help from gov't programs)

Frumdoc wrote:

My DH was recently talking to someone in town who collects large amounts of tzedaka to distribute. he said that the true kollel families don't have such big issues unless something unusual comes around in thier lives.
He said the ones who need more help are the young working couples who live way beyond their means and need the huge house, new car, designer clothing and are spending money they don't have.

Last edited by sky on Wed, Jul 23 2014, 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 10:39 pm

dr. pepper wrote:

Was this supposed to connect to my post somehow? I don't think there is any mitzvah for girls to get married at a young age, and certainly no chiyuv. In fact some rabbonim have suggested delaying as a way to alleviate the "shidduch crisis"...people are marrying off younger and younger because they're afraid to be an "older single", but why don't we redefine the threshold? Honestly, it's very hard for me to find a 19 year old girl these days with a realistic view of what life will entail and the maturity to handle it. Someone who has been out in the workforce, or rented an apartment with other singles, or did something beyond following what the school she went to said and following peer pressure (which includes going out on shidduchim even if she herself isn't ready) will have a more stable home, IMHO. That's not to say others cannot, but it will take a lot more hard work....whether the 19 yo is still in college, or has little earning potential and is trying to support, or she has no idea that her clothing budget as a teen cannot match the budget when she also has bills to pay...a few years would do wonders for many problems I see.

amother

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 10:40 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

I would also love to see the breakdown for a family of 7 living on 5500 a month.

okay, I will try to do it for you!

mortgage- 1120 (we are lucky I guess that the mortgage on our 4 bedroom house is quite low, we bought it at a cheap time with a great interest rate BH Smile

gas/electric - 210
car insurance-145
medical insurance premuiums - 645
dental premiums- 58
life insurance- 74
water - 15 (BH very low, we are lucky)
phone and internet and cellphone- 108
tuition - 1800
Total of the above = approx 4175

Remaining approx $1225 we spend on credit cards for groceries, toiletries, very basic clothing, medical out of pocket expenses, BH not too much. Also tzedaka. we have been told to use maaser for our sons tuition. We get WIC which is worth about $90 a month too. and before anyone bashes me for taking benefits, we are both educated people working full or almost full time in low paying education jobs.
we cannot afford to take vacations unless we save up airmiles and hotelpoints credit cards, ie a very small vacation every three to four years.

During hte summer we send to camp for only one session because it is so expensive. not easy , but doable but then again, in the summer we do not have tuition to pay. I dont work when the kids are home, which is okay because I am an educatior.

Yes, it is not always smooth sailing, and the hardest thing is when we have to save a little to make a simcha BH or when an appliance or one of hte cars needs repariing or replacing.
I should also mention that we get a tax refund every year of about $4000, that we usually use for fixing up problems in the house.

Honestly, I would love to be earning more and living without tightening our belts all the time, but hey, that's life, and unless dh or I retrain in a more lucrative profession, then this is our status quo. BH the schools understand, because they know how much (or rahter how poorly) teachers are paid and they reduce our tuiton accordingly generously.