Mishpacha -p23 - Can You Afford this Shidduch?

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 2:17 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

If you say you are making it on your own, it should be expected that it means not taking government programs or tzedaka (in this case tuition payments). That's fine if that's how a person chooses to live, but its not paying all your bills. Living off tzedaka is not "making it." Its a big distinction.

If at the end fo the year, the money you spent is more than the money you took in, then you will be in debt. That's not a kollel thing. Most of the people I know who say things work out, usually get handouts of some kind that end up covering the difference.

I disagree that getting tuition reductions is "not paying your bills". The bill is whatever the school charges YOU, not a penny more. Sure it would be nice for people to give extra to the school when they have more money but it's not an obligation if it's not on the bill.

Not everyone pays the same thing in taxes, and if a school wants to set a policy that not everyone pay the same in tuition, that's also okay for a family to pay what the school charges them for their income.

You don't think everyone should pay the same in taxes, and if they pay less than their neighbor, they're not paying their bills! A bill is a statement given by someone you owe money to how much payment you must remit.

Discounts are also given on medical procedures. If someone is given a bill for less because it's on a sliding scale, that doesn't mean payment in full for that statement is "not paying one's bills".

Let's stop having the mentality that everyone must have the same expense amounts (and therefore the same income per capita) -- it's just not feasible that every person have high paying jobs. We would be out of a lot of very important job holders.

SRS

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 3:31 pm

Hashem Yaazor,
I would argue that it is vitally mportant that ppl with significant tuition discounts start paying more for the ling term sustainability of Jewish Education. If you are paying next to nothing, you might be paying YOUR bill, but the entire burden cannot cintinue to fall on fewer and fewer shoulders. I think that in many ways, mass kollel has contributed to this. Of course so have many more things and we should not ignore those factors either.

MaBelleVie

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 3:34 pm

When you have that mindset it never ends. What about a therapist who has a sliding scale fee- are those at the lower end taking tzedaka? Should I be miffed if I pay her full rate, thinking that I'm subsidizing someone else's therapy and her rates would be lower if she didn't have a sliding scale?

MaBelleVie

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 3:36 pm

Also, you can argue that people who are educators are actually contributing more than anyone else to Jewish education, despite their lower cash contribution.

amother

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 4:16 pm

SRS wrote:

I think that my kids' schools will be our favorite tzedaka after they graduate.

naturalmom5

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 4:22 pm

amother wrote:

wow I feel so bad for you about that cancellation fee , that is a very steep fee! yes, emergencies do arise and it can be stressful, but at that point we try to remember that all we can do is our hishtadlus, if Hashem doesnt want it to work that way then He will make sure to put a spoke in the wheels. one thing I do find hard is feeling like we cant afford extras like I dont get any subscriptions. Right now I am getting my neighbors's binah magazine evey week when she is finished with it, the only thing is I have to wait too long to read my favorite serial, cant remember what it is called, the historical one by Etka Gitel Schwartz... oh well, that is life.

yes, groceries, I spend really carefully, it is harder in the summer when the kids are home and they seem to eat more. Home baked goods taste good and are much cheaper to make than to buy. seasonal fruit is not always as cheap as you would think,but I hate to limit fruit and veg for the chldren.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Some people pay for Bina
I would need to be paid a lot to read it
After I read voice of Lakewood and the shopper , my Shabbos is over

Some people pay for Bina
I would need to be paid a lot to read it
After I read voice of Lakewood and the shopper , my Shabbos is over

naturalmom5

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 4:41 pm

newme wrote:

I am posting on this thread for the first time.
As someone whose husband has been learning/teaching for decades I think the line of reasoning many of the previous posters have displayed is a little skewed.
You are all talking about parnasah as if it is an exact science.
Yes - when you crunch the numbers and look at the facts they don't add up.
And yes, women looking to support a husband in learning without having a decent paying profession, while raising kids and many of them, are being extremely idealistic.
But who said that living a life in Kodesh makes practical sense?
I doubt it ever has. It definitely has never been easy for us, and when we look at our finances they don't make sense.
We have zero security, we are in debt and we have no idea what we are going to for retirement (may we live that long).
We live on our belief. It's as simple as that.

When I was younger there were many nisyonos. I have since tried to learn a bit about emunah and bitachon (both by reading, and through life experience) and I still try to gain ongoing chizuk.
We have no complaints to the ribbono shel olam and we see a huge amount of s'yata d'shmaya,

There have been times when we received outside assistance - sometimes from parents, sometimes from others, but most of this came unsolicited, and never with a feeling of entitlement. Our parnassah comes from Hashem, and sometimes He sends it to us through messengers that are close to us. The way we see it they have chosen to gain the mitzvah.
I still daven daily that our parnassah should come directly from His hands.

B'H. I feel hugely privileged to have a husband who can still learn, and I make absolutely no judgement ch"v, against anyone who has chosen to live differently. Am Yisrael always had workers and learners.
Having said this, I have a growing dismay when I read so many posts that are basically disparaging the kollel paradigm when it is still something many Jews aspire to.

I am writing this post to point out that any attempt to portray a kollel lifestyle in a way that makes sense is probably doomed from the start. Of course it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to.
When sick people recover against all odds - does anyone wonder how taht happened?
When miracles happen in other realms of our life - does anyone think the ones on the receiving end did something wrong?

To the extent that one develops a firm belief that Hashem is the one who provides - and I mean IRON belief (I'm still a work in progress...) - to that extent one can reduce his natural effort to sustain himself and rely on Hashem to reveal his direct Hashgacha and trust me, Hashem provides in ways that are beyond the accepted laws of economic stability.

If anything is the problem with today's paradigm - besides for one issue that Rabbi Eisenstark pointed out (yes, I have read the article) of too much materialism, then it is the lack of bitachon on display in our posts. We need to sharpen our vision. We need to believe that Hashem sends Parnassah - and I am saying this to EVERYONE, not just women who are supporting husbands in Kollel.

As to the premise that opened this thread -
IN direct correlation to what I have just written, we have raised our children to believe that their parnassah is not dependant on their future in-laws bank accounts. Just as any healthy Hishtadlus should not come at the expense of other halachic obligations (no one would dream of robbing a bank in order to sit and learn without worries....!!!) so, too, one cannot demand anything from people who have nothing to give. One can - and some do - limit their shidduch pool to people who are offering to support m'lchatchila (I.e. wealthy people who do so willingly), but if someone is on a higher level of bitachon that won't be his main concern. From experience with distant family members - money comes and money goes. Marrying into a wealthy family is no insurance for years of support, and if one truly wishes to sit and learn the motivation and bitachon must come from within or else at the first sign of financial insecurity their dreams will come crashing down.
On the contrary - marrying into a simple family may be a plus, as the girl will not be accustomed to luxuries.

Just my two cents.

newme wrote:

Obviously, you are a new calla without a drop of the life experience I have
I give you a sincere brocha that you are able to talk the way you do 40 years from now

All I am going to say is that if 90% of Lakewood believed what you are saying even 1% , you wouldn't see all the ugliness and viciousness that you do in the bussing situation , the schools, the playgroups, shidduchim etc.
Customers and stores wouldn't act as petty and meeyus and they do
The women wouldn't be so intense and nervous
Drivers wouldn't be constantly in a mad rush without regard to the ramifications. It's just a kill or be killed atitude.

So while, what you are saying is true. Clearly very very few denizens of Lakewood believe it or they wouldn't act the way they do

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 4:44 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

naturalmom5, I just wanted to point out, look at the post you quoted. the poster wrote that her husband has been learning/teaching for decades...She is not a new kallah Sad

MaBelleVie

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 4:51 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

naturalmom5, I just wanted to point out, look at the post you quoted. the poster wrote that her husband has been learning/teaching for decades...She is not a new kallah Sad

Why are you sad about it?

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 4:52 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Why are you sad about it?

oops, not sure what happened there. did not mean that at all.

amother

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 4:56 pm

sky wrote:

they are both in education. I believe that parents in education deserve tuition breaks. They could get hire paying jobs but instead are getting paid less for one of the most important jobs out there. If anyone should be getting tuition breaks I think it should be then.

Thank you sky, I am that amother, yes we are both in chinuch. I constantly get the feeling from people on this website that we are not doing well enough because of our tuition breaks and WIC. Honestly, we could both get better paying jobs as you said, if we werent working for the community. Thanks for the validation. Also, thanks to Hahsem yaazor for saying somthing similarly supportive! I never claimed in my first post that our way works for everyone, just that this is how it works for us...

tovli toraspicha

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 5:10 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Also, you can argue that people who are educators are actually contributing more than anyone else to Jewish education, despite their lower cash contribution.

I very firmly believe this to be true- many teachers get a much lower salary than they should for what they put in, and they deserve a tuition "break" for their contributions to Jewish education. This should not be considered tzedakah, but rather part of their "package". ditto for a community Rabbi.

Frumdoc

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 6:09 pm

amother wrote:

No, the point is not whether you deserve tuition breaks, which I presume you do by virtue of having them. The point is that you were posting to say you personally can make it on a very low income, but in fact this version of making it is not generalisible to families other than yourselves as most families do not have both parents working in chinuch, or the whole world would work in chinuch and thus get tuition breaks, which is not going to work for everyone, especially the teachers that need paying from some source of income. You may feel financially secure, and deserving of your breaks, but in reality it is not a plan that one can extrapolate to a large number of other families, and so does not address the underlying issue.

Most people are going to have to find jobs outside, and have to beg for tuition breaks by virtue of finances, not because they deserve it as they are doing a service for the kehilla, and this doesn't count as "being financially secure".

The point beign made is exactly that: the vast majority of young boys go into kollel expecting to work as klei hakadosh, but this isn't feasible with the supply of kollel "grauduates" hugely outweighing the job market for "kosher jobs in the community".

FWIW, I don't believe that planning to live on government handouts represents a higher level of bitachon in Hashem than those who support themselves without government handouts. (This obviously does not include those who are unable to support themselves for medical or other reasons, ie the safetynet people for whom these funds are intended).

amother

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 8:06 pm

amother wrote:

I think that my kids' schools will be our favorite tzedaka after they graduate.

I hate to be cynical, but my father learned in Kollel for a long time before he started working.

He doesn't give a penny to his grandchildren's Yeshivos, because he can't.

But my parents enjoy all the picture postcards the Yeshivos send them of their grandchildren. Very Happy

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 8:11 pm

Deleted.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Jan 25 2016, 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

saw50st8

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 8:12 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Here's how tuition works:

School charges $x in tuition per child.

Family says I can't afford $x*number of kids.

Family fills out scholarship form.

School says "OK, we will get tzedaka to cover the rest of your bill. Here is the portion you should pay AND THE REST IS COMING FROM TZEDAKA."

This is vitally important to acknowledge. People don't like admitting they are taking tzedaka for tuition discounts. But yes, the money comes from somewhere - sometimes, they raise tuition on other people, sometimes they raise the money in other ways.

So yes, the school says you can pay less - AFTER YOU TELL THEM YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY IT.

Sorry for the caps, just emphasizing, not yelling.

[FTR, I don't like our tax system either - I think it needs drastic changes of either a flat tax rate or a COL adjustment]

amother

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 8:23 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

So, saw50st8s, I hear what you are saying. But if a family is giving their all for their community, putting their lives and souls into educating the community's children in Torah and Yirat Shamayim, why would the schools want to make those hardworking, community minded parents feel like they are dirt and need to accept charity just because the schools cannot pay them enough to make them be able to live like mentschen? I am teh amother who posted her whole budget living on $5500/month,we are both educators. Who do you think would want to be the educators of the next generation, who would want to teach your grandchildren if hte Rebbeim and teachers were made to feel like dirt?...........
So lets say the schools where dh and I teach would pay us an extra $1000/month each, then we could just about pay full tuition. Well, sorrry, hte schools cannot afford to pay us more, so instead they acknowledge to us, "you do so much for our jewish community, we will adjust your tuition obligation accordingly." That is not tzedaka, and no, thank G-d they do not make us feel like we are accepting tzedaka for the prviledge of working in chinuch of our community's children. It is teh negative , bashing posters like yourself and frumdoc who I am so glad are not our school's administrators and tuition deciders, because if they were as negative as you are being then nobody would be willing to teach hte children of our community... sorry.

saw50st8

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 8:53 pm

amother wrote:

Amother,

I'm not making a value judgement on taking scholarships. I am taking exception to the idea that you are "making" it on $5500/month. If my tuition burden were drastically reduced, I could make it on much less. The school would reduce your tuition based on your income, not based on your working at the school (unless you are talking about schools giving teachers free tuition for a certain number of kids - that's different).

I'm not treating you like dirt. I'm just saying you are making it because the community is supporting you, not because of your frugality :-/

FTR, I support schools paying their teachers and administrators living wages.

mirror

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 9:17 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

FTR, I support schools paying their teachers and administrators living wages.

But what happens in communities that pay the teachers much better, is that most parents go on BC bc they can't afford to pay more than 3 or 4 tuitions.

It's a real shame because some parents are so good at raising wonderful children that greatly benefit the Jewish community and we could use more of them.

amother

Thu, Jul 24 2014, 9:40 pm

Both my husband and I are college-educated. DH works full time. I work 3/4 time because there is no way I could work full time and be able to get kids to and from school and be off when needed for vacations, etc.

We moved OOT to a community with low cost of living. With the exception of socks and underwear, our clothes come from hand-me-downs, thrift stores, or a gemach. My car is 15 years old. DH's is 13. Our furniture is from before we had kids, some from before we were married, gemach, even out of people's trash if it can be cleaned up and repaired. We eat meat (chicken) ONLY on Shabbos. No fancy strollers. One human hair sheital in my entire marriage (otherwise synthetic) and I wear a tichel whenever possible to make my sheital last longer. Our summer vacation for a family of 5 cost $350 not including food (we schlepped our food and cooked on vacation...no restaurants).

We qualify for no gov't assistance. There is NO way we could pay full tuition unless we stopped eating. Meanwhile, I see most of the teachers at our school, and rebbes, with newer cars, nicer houses, several nice human sheitals, clothes that are clearly this year's styles, going on trips here and there throughout the year, etc. I wish I could pay full tuition. It literally makes me sick to my stomach when I fill out the financial aid form. I have no idea how families with the wife teaching and the husband working as a rebbe/in kollel make it work.