Next door Neighbor opened store in her house

Barbara

Fri, May 17 2013, 12:56 pm

Merrymom wrote:

vintagebknyc wrote:

SNIP
why everyone is bashing the OP, I don't know. it's ok for the neighbor to open an illegal store, but not ok for the OP to report it?

It's not about rights. She's in her rights but the way you treat other people is the way Hashem treats you. Maybe this is the only way this woman can have a parnassah.

There has to be a medium.

What if the "only way" that I can have a parnassah is to raise goats in my backyard, then make goat cheese? Or to be a dog breeder?

What if the "only way" that I can have parnassah is to repair automobiles, so that I regularly park 4 or 5 vehicles on the street, and several more (plus the junkers I use for parts) in the yard.

What is the "only way" that I can have parnassah is to operate a small-scale simcha hall in my basement, complete with very powerful speakers for the one-man band or DJ.

What if the "only way" that I can have parnassah is to come into your house and rob you each month.

Well, the last is most true. The congestion is likely to decrease the value of OP's home.

I am not, and have not, suggested legal action, but this blaming the victim, put up with it because its good for your neighbor even if it makes you miserable, stuff is absurd.

Fox

Fri, May 17 2013, 1:03 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

why everyone is bashing the OP, I don't know. it's ok for the neighbor to open an illegal store, but not ok for the OP to report it?

No, it's not okay for the neighbor to disrupt the neighborhood, even if the law does all for limited home-based businesses.

And, no, it's not okay for the OP to report it to law enforcement authorities without the permission of a beis din.

The bashing is occurring because the OP seems to have decided in advance that this neighbor will not be receptive to a respectful conversation about the problem, and that -- combined with some contradictory comments by the OP -- make many of us a little suspicious that there's more to this story than meets the eye.

Now, it's entirely possible that the OP is 100 percent correct. Perhaps her neighbor would not be receptive. Perhaps she would ignore a beis din summons or psak. Perhaps she would spread vicious rumors about the OP in retaliation for her complaint. Perhaps the beis din would say, "This woman is impossible -- call the local law enforcement agency right away!"

Torah-observant Jews, however, are not permitted to guess at outcomes and then circumvent the process based on those guesses. Yes, approaching the woman will be uncomfortable. Yes, putting up with whatever fallout occurs over the disagreement will be unpleasant.

But it is in situations like this that an individual's true yiras Shemayim and "frumkeit" emerges. Wearing the right length skirt; purchasing only certain hechshers; avoiding secular books . . . all that can be revealed as empty posturing when a person is faced with the requirement of taking the easy way or the correct way.

This is also a tremendous chinuch opportunity for the OP: she can grouse about the situation or pursue her grievance in the Torah-sanctioned way. Even if the result is not ideal from her standpoint, her children will have gained a valuable lesson about how Jews handle disputes.

yummymummy

Fri, May 17 2013, 2:15 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I don't get the part about her not being able to report the neighbor without the approval of a Beit Din. How can the Beit Din be allowed to render a decision that goes against American or local laws? I mean, they can decide on Jewish matters, but are they legally allowed to forbid someone to follow the actual law? That doesn't seem right.

The law does not REQUIRE someone to rat out their neighbor's basement business.

Mesirah (or mesira, Hebrew: to turn over‎) is a proscribed action under Rabbinic Law, encompassing a disputed range of instances in which one Jew reports the conduct of another Jew to a non-Rabbinic forum or government, even when the reported conduct is in violation of secular and Jewish law.

Beis Din will certainly take the legality of the basement business into consideration when issuing its ruling.

Clarissa

Fri, May 17 2013, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I prefer that people posting as amother not call me "honey." If you're going to take a tone with me, post as yourself or not at all.

Sorry - honey wasn't meant as derogatory at all! Unless you were just trying to change the subject! It's a term of endearment where I am from...

Oh. That makes me feel better. Thanks.

Plus, Clarissa, I just wanna clarify that the reason I am amother here is because ppl KNOW my neighbors, unfortunately... They are enough of a situation that if you live in my area you know EXACTLY who I am talking about. So have to be anonymous. I am not a coward otherwise...

It's totally okay, really. I just misunderstood the tone because of the "honey" thing. I understand about the neighbors and small-world thing and all.

Fox

Fri, May 17 2013, 2:52 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

fox, a q for you (to clear this up in my own mind)

let's say store is illegal, and rabbi says do not report... why wouldn't encourage the OP to go against the law?

what if it were a "massage" parlor? a meth dealer?

Clarissa wrote:

Having our own courts is considered an important mitzvah, and circumventing those courts without an attempt to resolve an issue through Jewish courts is a serious aveira. That's why -- even if the end result is the same -- it is praiseworthy for a person to attempt to resolve a dispute first through the Jewish courts.

Now, the question about the role in secular law is an important one, and a beis din knows how to take into account the various types of secular regulations. However, you shouldn't assume that a beis din will be more lenient than the secular court system. In many cases, particularly with regard to property rights, it may be stricter.

The beis din will also offer the plaintiff the option of a strict judgment based on halacha or a compromise. Thus, the option exists to find a workable solution that gives both parties some of what they want (e.g., the neighbor pays for a fence or limits her hours, etc.).

Part of the role of a beis din in our times is not to circumvent secular law, but to adjudicate disputes between Jews so that they are not required to create the potential chillul Hashem of taking one another to civil court. This case is a perfect example of the kind of situation a beis din should be involved in handling.

The OP theoretically has no particular desire to publicly embarrass her neighbor by dragging her into a lengthy proceeding with secular law enforcement authorities. She just wants to be able to enjoy her property without the aggravation of a home-based store. It's a mitzvah to resolve such a case involving two Jews without having to involve the secular authorities.

Let's say, though, that the halacha in this case favors the defendant -- the neighbor. In practical terms, the beis din will likely say to her, "Look, maidele, what you're doing is illegal under civil law, and your neighbor has every right to report you. To avoid a chillul Hashem, you need to find a way to accommodate her." If the neighbor still refuses, the beis din will likely say, "Go ahead and report her."

People tend to assume that they'll get more satisfactory results from civil authorities than from beis din, and certainly, there are many corrupt or incompetent batei dinim around. That's one of the reasons we daven every day for the restoration of our judges.

However, in many cases, a beis din can allow disputes to be settled privately without attendant publicity. In some cases, the beis din can effect a solution that would take civil authorities months or even years to reach -- if they have the interest in the first place.

Given the details the OP has provided, I'm not entirely certain that civil authorities would do much. An anonymous report is filed, and either a patrol car or housing officer is set out to investigate. He/she happens not to arrive erev Yom Tov, so there is no excessive car or foot traffic in evidence. He/she rings the doorbell and asks to look around. Even if the merchandise is visible, the neighbor will downplay the number of people entering. The enforcement officer, unfamiliar with the concept of frum basement stores, concludes that there will be no great kovod in shutting down the operation -- just a lot of paperwork -- so he/she notes that there is no evidence of a violation. The OP is not necessarily entitled to receive the results of the inquiry, so she has no idea what happened. And her problem is still not solved.

So not only is it a mitzvah to give the neighbor every opportunity to rectify the situation within a Torah framework, it may also be the most effective!

Fox

Fri, May 17 2013, 3:43 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I don't know. With all due respect, I've heard some pretty awful Beit Din stories. If they decide she can't report them, then she'll be stuck. I don't know if I'd involve them if I want to leave the option open to report the neighbor.

Which doesn't mean someone couldn't go talk to the neighbor and suggest that she take OP's feelings into consideration. But to eliminate the possibility of reporting her if she's defiant or refuses to be considerate?

This is true, but we haven't gotten anywhere near the point of a beis din in this case. The OP isn't willing to talk to the woman; might be willing to involve a rav; and isn't sure about a beis din.

There are definitely cases where a particular beis din is know to be incompetent, corrupt, or just "out of it." However, there are mechanisms for dealing with that, too. You can form a beis din by having each party select a judge, and the two judges select the third.

The fact that a particular beis din is a poor one doesn't mean you jettison the whole process -- just that you insist on your rights to a competent beis din.

Personally, I very much doubt that such a case would make it to beis din. In all likelihood, if talking directly to the neighbor doesn't work, the involvement of a rav will do the trick -- particularly if he apprises the neighbor that the outcome in a beis din would not necessarily favor her or that a recalcitrant attitude might lead the OP to stronger action.