Next door Neighbor opened store in her house

Clarissa

Mon, May 13 2013, 11:09 pm

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

amother wrote:

I have next door neighbors who rent, are filthy, and do not supervise their children. They are out ON MY PROPERTY at all hours of the day and night, and very young ones are often in the street and wandering down the block. I really suffer, and guess what? It's TOO BAD ON ME! Hashem picks your neighbors, and it is your job to maintain shalom and your mental health at the same time. You cannot change the world around you, you can only change you. I think you should

1. stop wasting mental and emotional energy STEWING in anger
2. approach her to directly address the SPECIFIC issues you can pinpoint, and
3. stop considering acting in a way that is against halacha - it is a terrible terrible aveira to be a mosser, read what Chazal say about it. And you will never win if you circumvent halacha.

Try to keep things b'shalom, and you will have a hand in bringig Moshiach closer, not pushing him ch"v further away.

Hatzlacha with your challenge.

By that logic, you could say Hashem created the laws that enable us to report our neighbors, and Hashem empowered the people to whom we report our neighbors.

amother from above responding -

Certainly. Just as He created the Torah with the laws and guidelines we are supposed to follow in all situations. For argument's sake. Smile

Then isn't the neighbor with the illegal business the one violating the Torah? Not to nitpick, but still, OP isn't the bad guy here, right?

amother

Mon, May 13 2013, 11:17 pm

Clarissa wrote:

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

amother wrote:

By that logic, you could say Hashem created the laws that enable us to report our neighbors, and Hashem empowered the people to whom we report our neighbors.

amother from above responding -

Certainly. Just as He created the Torah with the laws and guidelines we are supposed to follow in all situations. For argument's sake. Smile

Then isn't the neighbor with the illegal business the one violating the Torah? Not to nitpick, but still, OP isn't the bad guy here, right?

So someone else's aveira makes it okay for me to sin?

amother

Mon, May 13 2013, 11:40 pm

Clarissa wrote:

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

amother wrote:

By that logic, you could say Hashem created the laws that enable us to report our neighbors, and Hashem empowered the people to whom we report our neighbors.

amother from above responding -

Certainly. Just as He created the Torah with the laws and guidelines we are supposed to follow in all situations. For argument's sake. Smile

Then isn't the neighbor with the illegal business the one violating the Torah? Not to nitpick, but still, OP isn't the bad guy here, right?

Yes, honey, but your job on this earth is to work on yourself, not to fix others. There are lots of other ppl doing things wrong, too. But my job is only to fix me. And to work on tolerating others and their wrongdoings.

amother

Mon, May 13 2013, 11:47 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

amother wrote:

eema of 3 wrote:

amother wrote:

Op here again.
I can talk to her about the hours but even on a regular day schedule I didn't buy my house in a place that everybody is passing by and examining my life. I bought a house in a quiet street in order to have privacy. It is just not right and I doubt if it is allowed by Halacha.

I really doubt people are examining your life just from walking past your house. maube your front lawn, but thats really about it. yes, its a pain in the neck that your quiet block is not as quiet as it used to be, but its really not the end of the world. you still have privacy. people are not coming into your house at all hours of the day and night. youre not getting random phone calls at all hours of hte day and night. your block is just a little bit livlier, thats all. if the traffic on your block is too much, talk to her about not letting her customers park on the block.
before you go thinking I dont get it at all, I really do. I like peace and quite. im not a busy, hectic type person. I want my own house, with my own gated/fenced in yard, etc. but at the end of the day, not every situation that we are in is ideal for us. ive been living in ny now for 7 years, and I absolutely hate it. and I dont even liv ein a MAJORLY busy part of ny, just more busy than I would like. I live in a complex, and two women here baby sit from their homes. driving in and out of here in the morning or afternoon is insane. people park in my driveway all the time, and I hate it and ive mentioned it to both women. im attached to my neighbor, and I have no yard to speak of. but you know what? at the end of the day, I have a happy, healthy family, and thats really whats most important. yea, its inconvenient, and bothersome, but in the bigger scheme of things, its really not the end of the world. just go talk to her nicely, and see what you guys can come up with together.
by the way, you still havent answered me about whether you are attached to each other or not. not that it would change my overall feeling about the situation, but if you were attached it would definitely be mora bothersome than if you werent.

Op here
I wrote in one of my first posts. I'm not friends with her. We don't have much in common. Not the same age kids. We are friendly to each other and as I said she is even a bit of a snob toward me... Not really out of mean intentions just she feels that she is more religious even though I'm a black hat yeshivash type.

I did see that, but that doesnt change anything. even if it was someone you despise, you still need to try to find a compromise with her. shes a snob? thats great, but you still need to be a mentch.
and you STILL havent answered me about whether or not youre attached. Smile

If you mean if I'm married. Yes I am.

Shmerling

Mon, May 13 2013, 11:59 pm

amother wrote:

eema of 3 wrote:

amother wrote:

eema of 3 wrote:

amother wrote:

If you mean if I'm married. Yes I am.

I think she meant whether your house is 'attached' to hers or not.

Barbara

Tue, May 14 2013, 9:36 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

eight pages... about the rudeness/inconvenience of an....

ILLEGAL STORE.

parnassa or not. pain for neighbors, or not. need I say it again?

ILLEGAL STORE.

why should anyone allow an illegal store next to them when it disturbs the life they've created (and paid for, I might add) in a home they own?

why do people not want to report the ILLEGAL STORE?

for a group of women ready to jump on others' kashrut, level of frummness, and whether or not people text on shabbas, it's shocking to me how many think it's totally fine to open an illegal store that is disrupting neighbors. so hypocritical. which part of being torah-following jews involves accepting an illegal store?

OP said its a home-based business. We have no way of knowing whether or not it is legal. We don't know where, or even what country, its in. We don't know how the area is zoned, or what the local zoning laws are. We know nothing about it.

We also don't know how or if its disturbing the neighbors. We've asked for specifics, and none have been provided. Eg, I live in a co-op building. My neighbor across the hallway hates, HATES that I have furniture (nice wrought iron stuff, FTR) and plants in containers on my balcony. She can't even see it; her apartment faces the opposite direction. But she thinks I shouldn't have it. She is, to say it nicely, a little goofy. But I certainly am not changing anything to suit her. Or my SIL. She had to move because children played outside in her old neighborhood. Not loudly. Not strange hours. Just outside, like normal kids. Now, I have no way of knowing if OP is exhibiting over-sensitivity, like my SIL, or not. If she is, I still do feel terrible for her. She is who she is, and I'd love to brainstorm ways to help her. But if she is being overly sensitive, it is possible her neighbor has not done anything wrong. We just don't know.

happyone

Tue, May 14 2013, 9:41 am

First who says it's an ILLEGAL store. she may very well be paying her full taxes due and reporting her income. secondly, it's the Homeowners business to decide what can take place in his/her home. Home businesses are not necessarily illegal businesses.

while it's annoying and frustrating to have your private block become commercial, seldom is there THAT much traffic in a home based business. If there is.. the women can afford to rent commercial space!

in our community there was a women whose husband was in Kollel and she borrowed and invested tens of thousands of dollars in opening a business in her home to support her family. She completely renovated her basement to accommodate and then was forced to close her business due to a neighbor's complaining about privacy, not wanting the neighborhood to be commercial and so on so forth threatening her with the works....
Wanted to maintain peace with her neighbors she had to close down as Other neighbors were concerned that if the city looked into her basement as a store they would notice that other ppl in the area had illegal tenants including the neighbor bitching about the business. Long story short, she is struggling for parnassa and everyone else is pissed at the threatening neighbor for forcing someone to lose that much money when all they were trying to do is put bread on their table..

It's not so simple... call your Rabbi before you put your feelings first. ps. I'd be frustrated toO!

MaBelleVie

Tue, May 14 2013, 9:44 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

A Torah following Jew will follow specific halachic guidelines before reporting another Jew. There is no law requiring one to report illegal home businesses, thus op is not violating any civil laws if she chooses not to report it. Reporting, however, may violate halacha.

What is hypocritical about it? No one thinks the neighbor did the right thing. We're trying to help op do the right thing.

Ema of 5

Tue, May 14 2013, 9:48 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

I dont jump on anyone for anything. I didnt get involved in those threads because what other people do on their own time or in their own house is not my business. if something IS my business, like someones kashrus in order to determine if I should eat in someone house or not, I certainly wouldnt discuss it in public, I would discuss it with my husband, and a rav if thats what we chose to do.
I STILL dont get why turning her in is a better solution than trying to work it out. I dont think anyone is walking into the op house uninvited, or walking up to her windows and looking in. from what I understand, it used to be a nice, quiet block, and now its not so quiet anymore. op has not answered what exactly the problem is though, so its really hard to know for sure. and as marina pointed out more than once, WE DONT KNOW if its legal or not.
so if it is legal, then what? only THEN should the op talk to to her neighbor? instead, why not just talk now. tell the woman what the grievances are, and see if a compromise can be worked out. op does not really seem to want to offer any info, and no matter how many times people (including myself) have offered solutions, it seems like the op doesnt want to talk to the woman. I dont think its really fair to just turn her in before determining if its legal and before trying to work out a solution with her.

Fox

Tue, May 14 2013, 10:23 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

There is no part of being a Torah-observant Jew that requires one to acquiesce to an incursion of one's property rights by a neighbor. However, no matter how many times you say it, there are three salient facts that you're missing:

1. None of us, including the OP, is entirely certain that the store is illegal under secular law.

2. None of us, including the OP, is an expert on the halachos of property rights in such a case.

3. Regardless of the store's secular legality or lack thereof, going straight from annoyance to law enforcement is not halachically permissible within any halachic-observant derech of which I'm aware.

If a conversation with the neighbor doesn't improve things, the next step is beis din -- not the local law enforcement agency. If the beis din feels it is incapable of handling issues involved for some reason, it will give the OP permission to pursue the matter through secular authorities.

In fact, it's entirely possible and even likely that a beis din might be stricter in the interpretation of the OP's property rights than the local zoning enforcement board.

Many posters seem to have a highly unrealistic view of the possible outcomes of reporting the neighbor's store to law enforcement authorities. They seem to think that a single anonymous call will set forces in motion that will result in shutting down the neighbor's store.

Unless you live in Mayberry, NC, where Sheriff Andy will amble over and convince your neighbor to close up shop while Deputy Barney fumbles for the bullet in his pocket, prepared to "nip it in the bud," the report will probably be retired to the circular file unless a large number of complaints are received and/or the police are able to witness the problems described.

Trying to gain the support of other neighbors in protesting the home-based store involves a little more forwardness and less anonymity than I suspect the OP wants. Having the police check out the store means that they must be summoned precisely on those days when volume is high. And it's quite likely that, by the time they arrive, the hullabaloo would be over for the day.

On top of that, such a report sometimes has unintended consequences. A number of years ago, a persnickety neighbor filed a report against a rav and his wife on our block who had an "open house," hosting dozens of people every Shabbos. The neighbor reported them for running an illegal rooming house. Well, the housing inspectors showed up one Shabbos around the time of the day seuda and were welcomed and offered the opportunity to inspect. They found no evidence that a rooming house was in operation, had a a little kugel, and left.

However, they were already on the block, so they decided to conduct surprise inspections of all the buildings on the block. Perhaps they didn't want to waste the trip, or maybe they were hoping for cholent to go with the kugel.

They issued citations for five illegal apartments (none of which were Jewish-owned, BTW) as well as a number of minor citations. The neighbor who had filed the initial complaint was hit with several for things such as a gate installed incorrectly; maintaining an unsuitable yard (they had a meticulously tended prairie wildflower thing going on, but it didn't "fit in"); and illegal standing water in their backyard. Who knew you could be hauled into court over wildflowers?!

Even today, years after the event and after many of the properties have changed hands, the neighbors who were somehow discovered to have filed the complaint are held in tremendous contempt for not having behaved in a more mentchlikeit fashion -- and they're not Jewish, nor are many of the property owners!

The point of this long-winded story is that immediately reporting the neighbor to law enforcement authorities is not only halachically impermissible, it's probably not the most effective way to actually solve the problem.

chocolate chips

Tue, May 14 2013, 10:43 am

Whether it is legal or not. Whatever you think, perhaps she is working on getting it legalized?
Perhaps she is paying and getting taxes and gets 1099 at the end of the year.

Are you really saying that you know her personal finance life?

Besides, why oh why would you damage a fellow jews parnassah/income because it annoys you?
And if she were a mexican who had parties every night but you wanted to be on good terms with for whatever reasons?
You gotta smile and grit your teeth. That is life.

I live in an attached house. My landlord and my neighbor do PLENTY things that bother me and the downstairs neighbor is a non-jew who smokes out her bathroom window into our shaft which stinks my house of smoke.
Do I hate it?
YOU BET I DO!

Do I call the police? or yell or cry or do anything? No. Because one day they will complain about me and then what will I do? How do I know I am the perfect neighbor?

(I actually did complain about the smoke because that is dangerous and wrong) but she is not even attached to you. No one is knocking at your door. Make a big sign on your lawn no trespassing and put some music on so you don't hear the people coming and going. Close your curtains so no one sees in and be happy she has a parnassah.

edited because I realized my neighbors might read this.