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"If her rabbi says it's ok then it is" - is that r
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 5:52 am
I see this so often on these boards and it just gets me wondering. Really? We have no responsibility for what we do as long as we managed to find a rabbi who says it's ok? Won't we ultimately be held responsible in shamayim for WHO we choose as our rabbi?
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 5:57 am
Nope, not right. Rabbis can be wrong. We are ultimately responsible for the choices we make. A rabbi who leads someone astray will also be held accountable, but that does not absolve his followers.

Case in point: The meraglim were the tribal leaders, great men. The Jews accepted their report and cried. They were punished for it then and we are still suffering the consequences of that to this day.

Another case in point: Cheit HaEgel
In an effort to forestall the plan, Aharon HaKohen told the men to go home and collect all their wives' jewelry to be contributed toward the fashioning of the egel. The women didn't listen. To Aharon HaKohen. And we are still being rewarded for this today.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 6:14 am
Ok. That's what I thought.
So can we all stop acting like we're allowed to do whatever we want as long as there happens to be a rabbi out there who 'lets' us? I see this all the time in threads. When people are talking about things that are halacha as it is laid down in widely-followed halachic sources, I don't really care if you found a modern-day rabbi with semicha from somebody or other who 'holds' differently. That's not called "there are different opinions about this." Sometimes there are different opinions in halacha. Other times, it's just someone deciding something else makes more sense to him. Which really, is not ok.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 6:31 am
When I first read the title I thought to myself...if my Rabbi tells my best friend that something is allowed, specifically in our case about frozen vegetables, then I can take that for myself too. Which I can, we both chose that Rabbi, and we share like that.

Then I read the post...We, as individuals, and as married couples and families, have the freedom to choose our kehillah, and that kehillah chooses its Rav based on a whole series of requirements (as you would do when employing anyone), how he paskens must very much be in line with the community he works for.

We also have the choice to move, to leave a particular fold and to join a new community. We can choose to be part of a fashion, or a group, or a community, and it is not just in shamayim that we are held to account, it is right here and now. What we do and how we are viewed, the viewpoints we have and sometimes share, they are all markers of who we are, and often how we are judged (however right or wrong that might be). We also have a responsibility to make known injustices in an appropriate manner, be that reporting, or leaving, or disputing, and equally to promote what is right.

If we were all just blind followers, we would not have survived this long. In keeping with our tradition we stay bound to our cause, but the value in interpretation for the current issues of society (I.e. the Shabbos technology industry) is part of us stepping forward gracefully.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 6:36 am
Actually, no to whomever wrote that one is responsible for onesself.

We listen to our rabbis, period. However one is anti-modern rabbis, as the amother above obviously is, the test is very simple. It was obvious to ALL the people who had been at matan torah and received the 10 commandments that what Aharon was doing was WRONG WRONG WRONG. Just listen to the commandments, what they were selectively deaf for that second commandment?! Who are we kidding.

In other words, as long as a rov is not going against in his life or teachings something that is mefeirush kept across the board in all of Orthodox Judaism, you can't compare him to Aharon or to the meraglim as you do here, that's a shanda and slander! In both cases it was obvious that what they were doing was WRONG because they had heard straight from G-d's mouth in one case and from Moshe in another what "right" was.

Not true here. Almost all of yiddishkeit as practiced today has little to do with what is written directly in the Torah, because it is all based on interpretations of that torah as done by our sages throughout the ages and by interpretations of torah shebeal peh. Otherwise we would end up being like the Karaites and not eating hot food on shabbat and sitting in the dark, because the only thing we know straight from the Torah about shabbos is not to light a fire.

In other words, if an orthodox rov tells one to do something, unless you know a lot of yiddishkeit and can refute it with a different accepted interpretation, there is no reason to doubt what he says and that one can rely on it. Do you know law? Jewish law? Have you learned it for years like a Rov? Have you been tested by a beisdin on halocho? Do you know rishonim and achronim backwards and forwards? If so, you are a rov yourself and you don't need to go to a different one. But if not, it has nothing to do with modernity, you anti modern amother above, it has to do with knoweldge. You can choose a derekh and find a rov who belongs to that derekh. And then what he says goes. Including people who choose a machmirdik charedi rov as well...whose to say that what he says is right? Maybe he is nuts and neurotic and his chumros are a result of that and have nothing to do with a true torah life? But if you choose that derekh and want that rov, you keep to what he says.

Otherwise choose a different Rov. It's allowed. That's why we don't have a Pope in yiddishkeit, get it?
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 6:41 am
I think the point is that we don't know anyone on this board, so we are dan lcaf zchus that when someone quotes their Rav they are talking about a legitimate Rav with some sort of legitimate mesorah. If that it the case, then yes, if they are following their Posek they are fine. Obviously when choosing your own Rav, you need to make sure you are consulting with someone who has a legitimate mesorah of his own, and not some quack. Within every stream of Orthodox Judaism there are clearly recognized Halachic authorities, and a legitimate Rav will have someone who he considers his Moreh Derech.

I once came across a "halachic" psak discussing a certain shailah, and the author wrote how Rabbis X, Y, and Z hold like this and the Rema holds differently, as if a few unknown Rabbis outweigh the Rema, simply because it was "3 to one"!!!!!! It is clear that there are different "levels" of poskim, and someone needs broad shoulders to go against a psak from say Rav Elyashiv or R' Moshe. You can't say "well, hey I just got smicha and I'm 30 years old, but I'm also a Rav and I understand this Halacha differently". But if you have a Rav who is responsible and legitimate, then I do believe that in Shamayim we would be able to say "I was following the psak given to me by my Rav" as an acceptable explanation for our behavior.
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Mrs.K




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 6:45 am
I believe strongly in MYOB.

The way OP words her post, "If you can find a rabbi that says...." sounds like Rabbi shopping, what I think we can all agree is not exactly ideal.

However, if my friend's rav says the opposite of what my rav says, it's neither my business, nor do I have a right to argue with her that my Rabbi says differently. It's of absolutely no consequence. Her actions are between her, her Rabbi, and G-d. Not her, her Rabbi, G-d, Mrs. K, and Mrs. K's Rabbi.

I honestly feel that no one has the right to tell me that their Rabbi allows or doesn't allow what I'm doing or not doing. Nor do I have the right to say that to anyone else.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 6:56 am
Double post

Last edited by 5*Mom on Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 6:58 am
amother wrote:
Ok. That's what I thought.
So can we all stop acting like we're allowed to do whatever we want as long as there happens to be a rabbi out there who 'lets' us? I see this all the time in threads. When people are talking about things that are halacha as it is laid down in widely-followed halachic sources, I don't really care if you found a modern-day rabbi with semicha from somebody or other who 'holds' differently. That's not called "there are different opinions about this." Sometimes there are different opinions in halacha. Other times, it's just someone deciding something else makes more sense to him. Which really, is not ok.


Whoa, let's get one thing straight. I wrote what I wrote NOT so we can apply it to others and judge who else's rabbi is or isn't legitimate, who is and isn't doing the right thing and will or won't be punished for it in the future. Each person must apply this to themselves. Period. Not to their neighbors, not to all the other posters on imamother.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with modern. Anyone can err. Even with good intentions, as Aharon did, which was my point, and which is why the Torah gives an account of what happened. Great people with great knowledge and great intentions can be wrong. And if I follow them, I am held accountable for the choice I made.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:09 am
I think its actually a middle ground. The "blind faith" concept of daas Torah is really, really dangerous. You need to have some concept of basic halacha so if your rabbi says "Pig is kosher!" you can try to clarify.

On the other hand, rabbonim have the ability to pasken. Torah lo bashamayim he.

So, if you are a blind sheeple, that's a problem.
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smilingmom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:21 am
I cannot possibly be an expert in all areas of life, if I have an accounting question, I go to an accountant I trust and I know to be competent based on his qualifications and rely on his expertise. Likewise, when I have a halchic question, I go to a Rabbi I trust and I know to be competent based on his qualifications and rely on his expertise.
You may think that my Rabbi is incompetent or 'wrong',but I choose to follow his advice and have strong, solid basis for what I do. Therefore, if my Rabbi says I can, than I can.
In Judaism, we don't have one slim volume of laws, but a multitude of texts including Talmud Bavli and yerushalmi that discuss Jewish law and give many interpretations and opinions. If there were many opinions of what is right back then, why can we not accept that there are valid legitimate variety of right answers today.

The alternative to following a rabbis dictum is for each of us to do whatever we want based on any loopholes or chumras we can think of.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:23 am
saw50st8 wrote:
I think its actually a middle ground. The "blind faith" concept of daas Torah is really, really dangerous. You need to have some concept of basic halacha so if your rabbi says "Pig is kosher!" you can try to clarify.

On the other hand, rabbonim have the ability to pasken. Torah lo bashamayim he.


So, if you are a blind sheeple, that's a problem.


Yes, of course this is what I meant. We consult with rabbanim to clarify halacha and get psak. If the rabbi makes a mistake and as a result we do the wrong thing, we are not off the hook just b/c we were listening to the rabbi.

Once again, I think we are all talking past each other.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:28 am
I understood the OP to be asking if it is possible for a rabbi to be wrong or if "the rabbi is always right" just by virtue of the fact that he is the rabbi. Yes, it is possible for a rabbi to be wrong. NO, WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO DECIDE WHOSE RABBI IS OR ISN'T LEGITIMATE, RIGHT OR WRONG. It is a theoretical discussion to be applied by each person to himself only.
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:30 am
5*Mom wrote:
Nope, not right. Rabbis can be wrong. We are ultimately responsible for the choices we make. A rabbi who leads someone astray will also be held accountable, but that does not absolve his followers.

Case in point: The meraglim were the tribal leaders, great men. The Jews accepted their report and cried. They were punished for it then and we are still suffering the consequences of that to this day.

Another case in point: Cheit HaEgel
In an effort to forestall the plan, Aharon HaKohen told the men to go home and collect all their wives' jewelry to be contributed toward the fashioning of the egel. The women didn't listen. To Aharon HaKohen. And we are still being rewarded for this today.


These examples are not indicative of what we are discussing. No one went to Aharon and asked a shailah regarding Chet HaEgel. After murdering the first protester, the mobs went to Aharon and demanded that he help them do what they wanted to do -- they did not ask an aitzah, and in fact it was clear from what had happened until that point that Aharon's very life was in danger. So he agreed to help , and suggested they go get gold from their wives. This is not an example of "following a psak" or not!

By the meraglim as well, the people requested spies, against the advice of the gadol Hador (Moshe Rabbeinu). At that point in history Moshe was the undisputed leader of ALL of Klal Yisroel -- it wasn't an issue of my derech vs. yours -- it was an issue of ignoring the clear leader and listening to others. They may have been great, but there was NO mesorah in existence except for that which we had received from Moshe. Korach was great, too, and was absolutely wrong because when you have a Moshe Rabbeinu, there is no concept of "my Rav says differently."

It is clear that the situation today is very different, although I do agree with the posters who point out that we must use our minds as well to determine what is a legitimate psak and what isn't. R' Henoch Leibowitz, tz"l always used to stress "there is never an excuse to turn off your brain." But that means ask, clarify, make sure your Rav understands your shailah, make sure you understand the Psak, make sure you are dealing with a legitimate mesorah -- and then you can go up to shamayim saying "I followed the psak I was given".
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:37 am
m in Israel wrote:
These examples are not indicative of what we are discussing.


Argh. Last time. I raised these examples to illustrate that sometimes even great tzadikim can make an error in judgment. Certainly contemporary rabbis can do the same.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:50 am
Totally agree with you. Just because someone has smicha doesn't make him capable necessarily of interpreting halacha correctly on his own. Or of being a humble enough person to actually clarify inside what the halacha is. Especially when someone comes with an agenda.
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 7:53 am
5*Mom wrote:
m in Israel wrote:
These examples are not indicative of what we are discussing.


Argh. Last time. I raised these examples to illustrate that sometimes even great tzadikim can make an error in judgment. Certainly contemporary rabbis can do the same.


You are raising a different discussion -- what is the meaning of "Daas Torah" -- and of course a Rabbi, even the greatest one, can make an error in judgement. This has nothing to do with the OP's point, in which she seems to be questioning what determines if any individual Rabbi is legitimate/ can issue a Psak, particularly if it not a commonly accepted approach. In other words, not "can this Rav be wrong?" But "can a person follow a Rav who paskens differently than other Poskim?" In other words, not if a particular Rabbi may have one "wrong" Psak, but if a person as a matter of "derech" can follow a Rav who is not mainstream, and not be responsible for possible Halachic violations, because after all, she has a Psak. (I expressed my opinion on the OP's question in my previous posts). I am not disagreeing with your point -- I just feel that it does not address the OP's point -- and your examples are examples that do not impact her question.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 8:18 am
m in Israel wrote:
5*Mom wrote:
m in Israel wrote:
These examples are not indicative of what we are discussing.


Argh. Last time. I raised these examples to illustrate that sometimes even great tzadikim can make an error in judgment. Certainly contemporary rabbis can do the same.


You are raising a different discussion -- what is the meaning of "Daas Torah" -- and of course a Rabbi, even the greatest one, can make an error in judgement. This has nothing to do with the OP's point, in which she seems to be questioning what determines if any individual Rabbi is legitimate/ can issue a Psak, particularly if it not a commonly accepted approach. In other words, not "can this Rav be wrong?" But "can a person follow a Rav who paskens differently than other Poskim?" In other words, not if a particular Rabbi may have one "wrong" Psak, but if a person as a matter of "derech" can follow a Rav who is not mainstream, and not be responsible for possible Halachic violations, because after all, she has a Psak. (I expressed my opinion on the OP's question in my previous posts). I am not disagreeing with your point -- I just feel that it does not address the OP's point -- and your examples are examples that do not impact her question.


We understood her question differently then, as I clarified above. And I was the first to respond so the discussion technically began with me Wink .
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 8:39 am
I am the amother who is misquoted by OP.

What I said was that if FS's Rabbi poskens that something is correct for FS, then it is right for FS.

This is in response to a discussion where FS says that she and her husband hand over a crying baby; or if they are outside and there is no place keys, then they can pass them to eat other as long as their hands don't touch.

The pertinent part of the thread was removed. Posters were saying this is not correct. There were also posters saying how this will leads conservative or reform Judiasim with a 50% intermarriage rate without regard for the conversion.

My poor benighted simple post was pointing out that FS has a right to follow Halacha as interpreted by her Rabbi.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2012, 8:45 am
Is the rabbi a stripe of Orthodox?
Is he not in cherem?
Does he give normal psak for his circles?
Is he not rejected by his similar peers?

All good? Go ahead. And too bad if others are jealous or threatened by your psak.
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