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| Tamiri |
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 Posted: Mon, Aug 13 2012, 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| Tablepoetry wrote: | | Tamiri wrote: | | When a kid won't get up for minyan and you get him to do it... is that forcing? |
Yes, it's forcing. Sometimes a good idea, sometimes not - depends on kid and age. I would never dream of doing it to an 18 yr old, not even to a 16 yr old. | Well, I would. Up till age 18 or still living under our roof. Army and later... no longer my business after the first few tries. By then it's either they want to do it or they don't. I can't force a kid to want to go and by that age if they don't want, there is no point.
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| 5*Mom |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 13 2012, 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| Tamiri wrote: | | No job = no car insurance. He's got to know the value of earnings, and how much of the earnings it takes to pay for his young/new driver insurance, which is not a G-d given right even if he has his license. Is that force? |
No, that's not force either. You are not obligated to pay for his car insurance. It's perfectly reasonable to say "If you want to drive the car you need to pay for the insurance."
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| ewa-jo |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 13 2012, 4:31 pm Post subject: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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Regarding tznius, it's not forcing... it's just the natural order of things that the parents buy the clothes and the 3-year-old wears them. How are the inappropriate clothes going to find their way into the kid's closet???? Maybe she gets to pick which one of her skirts she is wearing that day, but you are not forcing anything... you are exercising your right as a parent.
We all make choices for our families every day, but it's not coersion.... I buy my kids a bag of popcorn and not jelly beans.. did I coerce them into choosing what to snack on? Nope, it's the normal natural order of life that a mother buys food for the kids and they can't eat something that I don't have at home.
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| Fox |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 13 2012, 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| ewa-jo wrote: | Regarding tznius, it's not forcing... it's just the natural order of things that the parents buy the clothes and the 3-year-old wears them. How are the inappropriate clothes going to find their way into the kid's closet???? Maybe she gets to pick which one of her skirts she is wearing that day, but you are not forcing anything... you are exercising your right as a parent.
We all make choices for our families every day, but it's not coersion.... I buy my kids a bag of popcorn and not jelly beans.. did I coerce them into choosing what to snack on? Nope, it's the normal natural order of life that a mother buys food for the kids and they can't eat something that I don't have at home. |
Precisely! And as the kids get older, you probably provide a lot of ongoing conversation about why you make various choices -- hopefully leading them to responsible choices when they are faced with various options away from home and in adulthood.
| 5*Mom wrote: | | Tamiri wrote: | | No job = no car insurance. He's got to know the value of earnings, and how much of the earnings it takes to pay for his young/new driver insurance, which is not a G-d given right even if he has his license. Is that force? |
No, that's not force either. You are not obligated to pay for his car insurance. It's perfectly reasonable to say "If you want to drive the car you need to pay for the insurance." |
Ultimately, everything comes down to an opportunity cost. Desires are always more plentiful than resources. If you want to drive, you have to be willing to forfeit lounging around the house all summer. If you want to attend college, you will probably not be able to afford your own car or apartment right now. If you want to attend summer camp with your friends, you will not be able to babysit all summer and thus earn enough money to visit relatives in Israel during winter break.
This is why I'm not a big fan of "consequences" that are not directly linked to the events: they don't teach the concept of choices and opportunity costs. The sooner kids learn the link between their choices and the natural outcomes, the fewer lessons they'll have to learn as teenagers and young adults.
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| 5*Mom |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 13 2012, 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| Fox wrote: | | ewa-jo wrote: | Regarding tznius, it's not forcing... it's just the natural order of things that the parents buy the clothes and the 3-year-old wears them. How are the inappropriate clothes going to find their way into the kid's closet???? Maybe she gets to pick which one of her skirts she is wearing that day, but you are not forcing anything... you are exercising your right as a parent.
We all make choices for our families every day, but it's not coersion.... I buy my kids a bag of popcorn and not jelly beans.. did I coerce them into choosing what to snack on? Nope, it's the normal natural order of life that a mother buys food for the kids and they can't eat something that I don't have at home. |
Precisely! And as the kids get older, you probably provide a lot of ongoing conversation about why you make various choices -- hopefully leading them to responsible choices when they are faced with various options away from home and in adulthood.
| 5*Mom wrote: | | Tamiri wrote: | | No job = no car insurance. He's got to know the value of earnings, and how much of the earnings it takes to pay for his young/new driver insurance, which is not a G-d given right even if he has his license. Is that force? |
No, that's not force either. You are not obligated to pay for his car insurance. It's perfectly reasonable to say "If you want to drive the car you need to pay for the insurance." |
Ultimately, everything comes down to an opportunity cost. Desires are always more plentiful than resources. If you want to drive, you have to be willing to forfeit lounging around the house all summer. If you want to attend college, you will probably not be able to afford your own car or apartment right now. If you want to attend summer camp with your friends, you will not be able to babysit all summer and thus earn enough money to visit relatives in Israel during winter break.
This is why I'm not a big fan of "consequences" that are not directly linked to the events: they don't teach the concept of choices and opportunity costs. The sooner kids learn the link between their choices and the natural outcomes, the fewer lessons they'll have to learn as teenagers and young adults. |
And to you!
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| hadasa |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 13 2012, 10:28 pm Post subject: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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I've been told that the four stages of parenthood are: 1) Kove'a, 2) Meshachne'a, 3) Meya'etz, 4) Meshachrer.
I can't translate it well, but it's something like 1) Sets down the line, 2) Tries to convince, 3) Gives advice, 4) Lets go.
It's not a 100% linear thing, and at any given time you will be at one stage for one issue and at another for something else, but this is the general idea. When a child is small, you make all his decisions for him. Then slowly you give him the tools to make his own decisions, until the time comes to let go (almost) entirely.
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| Tamiri |
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| Posted: Mon, Aug 13 2012, 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| hadasa wrote: | I've been told that the four stages of parenthood are: 1) Kove'a, 2) Meshachne'a, 3) Meya'etz, 4) Meshachrer.
I can't translate it well, but it's something like 1) Sets down the line, 2) Tries to convince, 3) Gives advice, 4) Lets go.
It's not a 100% linear thing, and at any given time you will be at one stage for one issue and at another for something else, but this is the general idea. When a child is small, you make all his decisions for him. Then slowly you give him the tools to make his own decisions, until the time comes to let go (almost) entirely. | Looking back at our eldest, who is 27, I would say this matches precisely our derech.
Oh, and BTW? The 18 yo who got a job? He feels he was "forced". I'm losing sleep over it. 
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| Karnash |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 12:34 am Post subject: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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Is this a summer job Tamiri ? - till school or army or yeshiva starts? If there were some extenal limit on the time he had to just "hang around", I might have let my son do that - and suffer the consequences - no money for all the fun things he wanted to do - that's also a life lesson.
If it's a longer or indefinite period of unstructured time I would also have done everything possible to make him get a job or do something worthwhile with the time he had.
But don't lose sleep over it - he probably wouldn't be happy either way, after all he's 18.
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| gp2.0 |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 12:49 am Post subject: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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This thread is laughable because no parent I know, as a rule, forces their child to do things. OTOH, every parent I know, has at one point or another, for one reason or another, forced their child to do something.
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| Tablepoetry |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 1:31 am Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| Tamiri wrote: | | hadasa wrote: | I've been told that the four stages of parenthood are: 1) Kove'a, 2) Meshachne'a, 3) Meya'etz, 4) Meshachrer.
I can't translate it well, but it's something like 1) Sets down the line, 2) Tries to convince, 3) Gives advice, 4) Lets go.
It's not a 100% linear thing, and at any given time you will be at one stage for one issue and at another for something else, but this is the general idea. When a child is small, you make all his decisions for him. Then slowly you give him the tools to make his own decisions, until the time comes to let go (almost) entirely. | Looking back at our eldest, who is 27, I would say this matches precisely our derech.
Oh, and BTW? The 18 yo who got a job? He feels he was "forced". I'm losing sleep over it. |
Is all the money he will earn going toward the car insurance? I think it also makes a difference if you can easily afford to pay some of the car insurance, or if it's really impossible. If you can afford it and it's just to 'teach him a lesson in finances' - I can see why he'd be resentful if he has to pay for ALL of it.
I wouldnt' call it 'forcing' in any case, though.
If it were my kids they probably wouldn't work a whole summer to pay for car insurance - I have the feeling they'd just skip the use of the car altogether.
Is he going to the army soon? Maybe he feels this was his last chance at some lazying about?
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| Tamiri |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 2:17 am Post subject: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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He's going into 12th grade. January baby plus repeated a year. WE will pay the insurance. He gets to keep the money. But now he knows how hard it is to earn. And BH I didn't have to look at him in front of the computer too much this summer. I hate that part (all the kids, not just him). He had a viable job, had 2 tiyulim so far and another one this week (we pay for it all) AND learned a great lesson. I truly am not losing any sleep - that was a joke.
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| Tablepoetry |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 2:30 am Post subject: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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LOL. Glad it worked out for you.
I also hate it when the kids stay by the computer too long (wonder where they learned that from????)
Sometimes I think I'm too easy on my kids, but you know what, the things I don't 'force' them to do but I think are important anyway.....they often eventually decide to do on their own (ok, after a few years, but still...)
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| Hashemlovesme |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 4:55 am Post subject: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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chanoch l'naar al pi darko
depending on the circumstances, personalities, outside stresses,effects of your actions.....
sometimes a parent has to drag a kid out of bed, sometimes they have to leave it at "this is btwn you & G-d", sometimes a parent has to keep the kid locked inside, sometimes you let them go out looking ridiculous & learn for themselves.....sometimes you need to ground a kid, sometimes just a disappointed look is enough, sometimes you have to totally ignore in order to keep the relationship. NOBODY, nobody can judge. Nobody else sees the whole picture.
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| 5*Mom |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 6:31 am Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| Tamiri wrote: | | He's going into 12th grade. January baby plus repeated a year. WE will pay the insurance. He gets to keep the money. But now he knows how hard it is to earn. And BH I didn't have to look at him in front of the computer too much this summer. I hate that part (all the kids, not just him). He had a viable job, had 2 tiyulim so far and another one this week (we pay for it all) AND learned a great lesson. I truly am not losing any sleep - that was a joke. |
Well that's a horse of a different color.
*DISCLAIMER: I am not criticizing the way you parent your children. I'm sure you have lots to teach me  . Just discussing the general philosophy as I would apply it to my children in our situation.[/disclaimer]
Personally, I wouldn't have set it up quite that way b/c to me that undermines the long-term goals of having a child get a job. In such a situation, there are short-term goals and long-term goals. Short term: Keeping him occupied productively; having his own pocket money. Long-term: For him to learn that in life we need to pay for the goods and services we consume; Experiencing the satisfaction and value of paying one's own way=independence.
By coercing him into getting a job but continuing to pay for the extras that are really not his by rights (optional trips, car insurance, etc.) it seems to me you've focused on the short-term goals at the expense of the long-term goals. He has not learned that he has to pay for his goods/services, nor has he experienced independence b/c you are still paying for everything. There is no connection between his getting a job and these long-term goals. I'd consider this a lost opportunity and one that you will likely find yourself having to repeat.
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| merelyme |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 7:18 am Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| 5*Mom wrote: | Personally, I wouldn't have set it up quite that way b/c to me that undermines the long-term goals of having a child get a job. In such a situation, there are short-term goals and long-term goals. Short term: Keeping him occupied productively; having his own pocket money. Long-term: For him to learn that in life we need to pay for the goods and services we consume; Experiencing the satisfaction and value of paying one's own way=independence.
By coercing him into getting a job but continuing to pay for the extras that are really not his by rights (optional trips, car insurance, etc.) it seems to me you've focused on the short-term goals at the expense of the long-term goals. He has not learned that he has to pay for his goods/services, nor has he experienced independence b/c you are still paying for everything. There is no connection between his getting a job and these long-term goals. I'd consider this a lost opportunity and one that you will likely find yourself having to repeat. |
How does it not accomplish a long-term goal?
The kid (er, youth) has tasted holding down a job on a short-term basis (thus learning responsibility), plus he gets to enjoy the fruits of his labor (wages). He has the independence to choose what to do with it: save, spend, splurge - or a combination of the above.
Looks good to me.
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| 5*Mom |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 7:23 am Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| merelyme wrote: | | 5*Mom wrote: | Personally, I wouldn't have set it up quite that way b/c to me that undermines the long-term goals of having a child get a job. In such a situation, there are short-term goals and long-term goals. Short term: Keeping him occupied productively; having his own pocket money. Long-term: For him to learn that in life we need to pay for the goods and services we consume; Experiencing the satisfaction and value of paying one's own way=independence.
By coercing him into getting a job but continuing to pay for the extras that are really not his by rights (optional trips, car insurance, etc.) it seems to me you've focused on the short-term goals at the expense of the long-term goals. He has not learned that he has to pay for his goods/services, nor has he experienced independence b/c you are still paying for everything. There is no connection between his getting a job and these long-term goals. I'd consider this a lost opportunity and one that you will likely find yourself having to repeat. |
How does it not accomplish a long-term goal?
The kid (er, youth) has tasted holding down a job on a short-term basis (thus learning responsibility), plus he gets to enjoy the fruits of his labor (wages). He has the independence to choose what to do with it: save, spend, splurge - or a combination of the above.
Looks good to me. |
My point was that it makes much more sense to say, "You are 18 and car insurance is an extra that we will no longer be paying for. If you want to use the car you need to pay for your own insurance." It seems to me to defeat the purpose by continuing to pay for all his extra expenses.
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| merelyme |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 7:36 am Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| 5*Mom wrote: | | My point was that it makes much more sense to say, "You are 18 and car insurance is an extra that we will no longer be paying for. If you want to use the car you need to pay for your own insurance." It seems to me to defeat the purpose by continuing to pay for all his extra expenses. |
Oh, I thought they said, "We'll pay for your car insurance only if you get a summer job."
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| 5*Mom |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 7:52 am Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| merelyme wrote: | | 5*Mom wrote: | | My point was that it makes much more sense to say, "You are 18 and car insurance is an extra that we will no longer be paying for. If you want to use the car you need to pay for your own insurance." It seems to me to defeat the purpose by continuing to pay for all his extra expenses. |
Oh, I thought they said, "We'll pay for your car insurance only if you get a summer job." |
Yes, they did. And that's what doesn't make sense to me. I'd say, "We're not paying for car insurance for an 18 yr old anymore. Period. If you want to use the car, get a job and pay for the insurance." Then there is a direct connection between getting a job and paying for expenses, which is the long-term life lesson I would imagine they were trying to impart.
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| merelyme |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 7:57 am Post subject: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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What is the cost of car insurance for him? Is it a sum he can earn over the summer, with a little bit left over?
Do his peers pay for their own car insurance, or in their circles is it a given that parents cover this expense (along with room, board, clothing and tuition)?
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| 5*Mom |
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| Posted: Tue, Aug 14 2012, 8:08 am Post subject: Re: re: Do you force your kids to do things? |
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| merelyme wrote: | What is the cost of car insurance for him? Is it a sum he can earn over the summer, with a little bit left over?
Do his peers pay for their own car insurance, or in their circles is it a given that parents cover this expense (along with room, board, clothing and tuition)? |
I don't know, it wasn't my example. But if it wasn't feasible then there's even less of a logical connection between insurance and getting a job, and this should not be involved in the job discussion at all. Clearly it should be an extra expense that a summer job could feasibly cover, and that kids his age (not necessarily all kids his age, but some) in his social circle pay for on their own.
We start this at around 12 with extras like pizza and ice cream with friends, etc. when our kids are old enough to babysit or otherwise earn enough pocket money to cover these extras, and move on to larger expenses as their earning capacity grows, as do the size and cost of their interests .
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