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| amother |
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Amother
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 Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 9:20 am Post subject: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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So I am listening to my son learning the ten commandments.
I am flabbergasted because the Rebbe is teaching goys love to kill. The big difference between goys and jews is that unlike goys jews are not allowed to kill. Goys get great pleasure killing. This went on in the same vein for a bit. If I were a kid learning this I would be petrified of goys.
Is this normal to teach this the commandments this way?
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| shoeboxgirly |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 9:26 am Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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I'm no expert, not in school based chinuch, or anything like this. But, as far as I was aware, murder is on the noachide list too, so no one is allowed to do that.
I also think it is disgusting to portray non Jews as a single group, and a bad one at that, otherwise how would there exist righteous gentiles?
This is very odd, and I would not be at all happy if my kids, friends, anyone I knew, anyone was taught this way. It appears a little bit desperate.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 9:41 am Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| OP here. I am very modern. My husband is chasidush. I know the modern pov. I would love to hear from chasidush people what the thinking is on this. I also would like to learn if other haskofas support this. Please don't turn this into a lets bash chasidush thread. So if you think this is nuts and are not chasidush, please don't post.
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| Barbara |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 9:47 am Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| amother wrote: | | OP here. I am very modern. My husband is chasidush. I know the modern pov. I would love to hear from chasidush people what the thinking is on this. I also would like to learn if other haskofas support this. Please don't turn this into a lets bash chasidush thread. So if you think this is nuts and are not chasidush, please don't post. |
Sorry, but not following your suggestion. Because this is crazy and disgusting and offensive, not to mention completely and utterly untrue, and has no place in any school. [And that's NOT anti-Chassidic, because I find it difficult to believe that Chassidim teach or believe that.]
Imagine the following: the local Catholic school spends a few days talking about Judaism. They're taught that Jews believe that they are commanded to murder, and therefore cannot be considered to be good people. Citation -- Amalek. Do you have a problem with that?
Go to the school. Demand that this be changed. If its not, pull your son out of the school. And if you don't, recognize that you are actively encouraging your child to be a racist, and to hate others.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 9:54 am Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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What does "very modern" mean, chasidush throwaway? And what bearing does it have on the Amalek discussion?
No, in general chassidish children are not taught that Gentiles love to kill. There's something wrong with the Rebbe.
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| gp2.0 |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 10:11 am Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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Actually (speaking as a chassidish person) I have heard of this kind of thing being taught in chassidish circles. However, AFAIK, they are trying to move away from this way of teaching these days. Guess it's a gradual process and your son got stuck with one of the 'old-school' rebbes?
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| groisamomma |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 10:13 am Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| I agree. It doesn't hurt to call the cheder and mention your concerns. Most chedarim are more PR-minded today and will probably do something about it.
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| 5*Mom |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 10:16 am Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| I learned this and so did each of my children in BY and cheder. They don't dwell on it overly much but when teaching about Matan Torah, it is standard to teach that Hashem first went to all the other nations, offering them the Torah, and each one turned it down b/c they could not accept the commandments not to kill, not to steal, not to lie, etc. Yes, this is standard.
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| AlwaysGrateful |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 11:20 am Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| 5*Mom wrote: | | I learned this and so did each of my children in BY and cheder. They don't dwell on it overly much but when teaching about Matan Torah, it is standard to teach that Hashem first went to all the other nations, offering them the Torah, and each one turned it down b/c they could not accept the commandments not to kill, not to steal, not to lie, etc. Yes, this is standard. |
Sure, this is a medrash. About ONE nation (Yismael, I think?) that said they could not accept the torah because it says not to kill in it. Teaching that Yishmael at that time (probably his sar?) said this is different from saying "non jews like to kill."
OP, do you KNOW that the rebbe taught this? Or did your son come home saying something like this, and you figured the rebbe said it? Sometimes kids can twist things, or just get confused about them. My ds came home from gan one day talking about how bad people were going to come and burn down the shul...he was having nightmares from it...turns out he got confused about the fact that the "bad people" came and burned down the beis hamikdash, and he didn't get that it was a long time ago...a quick conference with his teacher fixed this.
Maybe talk to the rebbe about your concerns and see what he says?
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| m in Israel |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 11:42 am Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| 5*Mom wrote: | | I learned this and so did each of my children in BY and cheder. They don't dwell on it overly much but when teaching about Matan Torah, it is standard to teach that Hashem first went to all the other nations, offering them the Torah, and each one turned it down b/c they could not accept the commandments not to kill, not to steal, not to lie, etc. Yes, this is standard. |
Kids are also taught "Hakol Kol Yaakov Vhayidayim Yedai Eisav" can mean that our strength is in our voice through tefilah and learning, while Eisav uses his hands. The (historically true) idea being that Jews have never relied on their own physical prowess in order to succeed.
But both of these are a very far cry from what the OP is describing. I have never heard this idea that "goys love to kill/ get pleasure from it", etc. being taught. As other posters mentioned, non jews are also prohibited from killing (in the sheva mitzvos benai noach) -- which BTW makes the Matan Torah medrash difficult to understand.
I would also say something to the Rebbe or the school.
I am not Chassidish -- we are Chareidi/ yeshivish.
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| spring13 |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 12:18 pm Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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that's seriosuly appalling, and I'd complain to someone about it. that kind of attitude helps NO ONE.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| amother wrote: | What does "very modern" mean, chasidush throwaway? And what bearing does it have on the Amalek discussion?
No, in general chassidish children are not taught that Gentiles love to kill. There's something wrong with the Rebbe. |
IDK what a chasidush throwaway is. I was MO until I married my husband. I live in a chasidush world without the upbringing. The bearing this has on the discussion is because I don't have the necessary background to know if this is party line or as you say something is wrong with the rebbe.
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| Barbara |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| 5*Mom wrote: | | I learned this and so did each of my children in BY and cheder. They don't dwell on it overly much but when teaching about Matan Torah, it is standard to teach that Hashem first went to all the other nations, offering them the Torah, and each one turned it down b/c they could not accept the commandments not to kill, not to steal, not to lie, etc. Yes, this is standard. |
We learned that in our Conservative Hebrew school. I doubt anyone thought it was literal. But even if they did, there's a real difference between saying "several thousand years ago, one group of people ...." and saying "all non-Jews ...," as in "next time you're in the supermarket, see that checkout clerk who always smiles and asks you how school is? Yeah, well she enjoys killing people."
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| amother |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| AlwaysGrateful wrote: | | 5*Mom wrote: | | I learned this and so did each of my children in BY and cheder. They don't dwell on it overly much but when teaching about Matan Torah, it is standard to teach that Hashem first went to all the other nations, offering them the Torah, and each one turned it down b/c they could not accept the commandments not to kill, not to Isteal, not to lie, etc. Yes, this is standard. |
Sure, this is a medrash. About ONE nation (Yismael, I think?) that said they could not accept the torah because it says not to kill in it. Teaching that Yishmael at that time (probably his sar?) said this is different from saying "non jews like to kill."
OP, do you KNOW that the rebbe taught this? Or did your son come home saying something like this, and you figured the rebbe said it? Sometimes kids can twist things, or just get confused about them. My ds came home from gan one day talking about how bad people were going to come and burn down the shul...he was having nightmares from it...turns out he got confused about the fact that the "bad people" came and burned down the beis hamikdash, and he didn't get that it was a long time ago...a quick conference with his teacher fixed this.
Maybe talk to the rebbe about your concerns and see what he says? |
I heard it. I was waiting for my son. I was listening for about 40 minutes.
I won't talk to the Rebbe. I am not the type.
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 1:16 pm Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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Barbara, pretty please start a new thread if you want to continue. I have a serious issue that I would like to get some perspective on. You are not helping anything. You may be keeping away posters who could be helpful to me.
You pov of how things should be taught is not going to tell me what is going on.
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| Barbara |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| amother wrote: | Barbara, pretty please start a new thread if you want to continue. I have a serious issue that I would like to get some perspective on. You are not helping anything. You may be keeping away posters who could be helpful to me.
You pov of how things should be taught is not going to tell me what is going on. |
You want people who are going to tell you that its just fine and dandy to teach your kids that non-Jews are all blood-thirsty murderers. Well, sorry, I'm not going away and leaving this alone. You want to take this to the Charedi forum, enjoy, but I suspect you'll get the same answers.
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| AlwaysGrateful |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| amother wrote: | Barbara, pretty please start a new thread if you want to continue. I have a serious issue that I would like to get some perspective on. You are not helping anything. You may be keeping away posters who could be helpful to me.
You pov of how things should be taught is not going to tell me what is going on. |
Wait, I don't get it. You don't want to talk to the Rebbe about it. You just want to get some perspective on whether this rebbe is normal or saying something crazy. We're telling you -- he's saying something crazy. I'm yeshivish, not chassidish -- but I cannot imagine that chassidish posters would think that this is normal or fine. Maybe put this in the chassidish forum if you'd prefer that only they respond?
And what's the point? If you're not going to do anything about it, even if it is crazy, because you're not that "type" -- then your son is just going to get indoctrinated with this "non jews are evil" mentality.
Again, I'm yeshivish. My dh learns in kollel. My kids are going to yeshivish schools (although we do live OOT, so that might change things). And if I ever heard one of my kids being taught something like this, I would definitely make sure that something was being done. Whether that meant talking to the rebbe, the hanhala, or to my kid himself (and I would do that as a last resort, because I am strongly against contradicting teachers unless there's no other option), I would do it.
It's my child's chinuch.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| Barbara wrote: | | amother wrote: | Barbara, pretty please start a new thread if you want to continue. I have a serious issue that I would like to get some perspective on. You are not helping anything. You may be keeping away posters who could be helpful to me.
You pov of how things should be taught is not going to tell me what is going on. |
You want people who are going to tell you that its just fine and dandy to teach your kids that non-Jews are all blood-thirsty murderers. Well, sorry, I'm not going away and leaving this alone. You want to take this to the Charedi forum, enjoy, but I suspect you'll get the same answers. | There is no Cheridi forum. You are not being very nice or kind here to me by not stepping out of this thread when I asked you nicely not to head off on your tangents.
If I thought it was fine and dandy, would I have started this thread? I have a real life issue and your are obstructing me from getting any info because I don't have the ability to go to a private forum.
It is immaterial to me how learning is taught in a conservative hebrew school just as my MO learning is not relative here. I am only concerned with what my son is learning. I need to know this. As one mother to another, please let it go.
Please be reasonable.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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| AlwaysGrateful wrote: | | amother wrote: | Barbara, pretty please start a new thread if you want to continue. I have a serious issue that I would like to get some perspective on. You are not helping anything. You may be keeping away posters who could be helpful to me.
You pov of how things should be taught is not going to tell me what is going on. |
Wait, I don't get it. You don't want to talk to the Rebbe about it. You just want to get some perspective on whether this rebbe is normal or saying something crazy. We're telling you -- he's saying something crazy. I'm yeshivish, not chassidish -- but I cannot imagine that chassidish posters would think that this is normal or fine. Maybe put this in the chassidish forum if you'd prefer that only they respond?
And what's the point? If you're not going to do anything about it, even if it is crazy, because you're not that "type" -- then your son is just going to get indoctrinated with this "non jews are evil" mentality.
Again, I'm yeshivish. My dh learns in kollel. My kids are going to yeshivish schools (although we do live OOT, so that might change things). And if I ever heard one of my kids being taught something like this, I would definitely make sure that something was being done. Whether that meant talking to the rebbe, the hanhala, or to my kid himself (and I would do that as a last resort, because I am strongly against contradicting teachers unless there's no other option), I would do it.
It's my child's chinuch. |
I did not say I would not deal with this just that I would not talk to the rebbe. If the rebbe is to be talked to, I will have my husband do so.
Unfortunately, I have no access to the chasidush forum.
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| bluebird |
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| Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 3:39 pm Post subject: re: Teaching Jewish kids that goys love to kill |
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OP, there IS a chareidi forum: The Chareidi and Ultra-Orthodox Outlook. It's closed and you can apply for access by clicking the User groups tab at the top of the page or clicking this link:
http://imamother.com/forum/groupcp.php?g=13763
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