If you eat chulent.........

Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 2:06 am Post subject: re: If you eat chulent.........

groisamomma is English not your mother tongue?
Tradition means custom means minhog. It's the same word three times.
Show me where I say that "these foods are "just" tradition and not minhog"?????

I am saying that these foods are tradition and that tradition is the custom of a particular group and that these foods are NOT HOLY.

MINHOG, BTW is not holy, it is "customary".

Chazal quote that "minhog yisroel din hu" - translated - "the custom of Israel is law" - but they are ONLY referring to a particular type of Dinei Mamonos (financial customs) at a particular time. If you want elucidation you can refer to Rabbi Sperber's seven volumes on the origins of minhogei yisroel where he explains where this came from, the concept, and that the words "din hu" were never used for and should not be used for, anything but these particular dinei mamonos that chazal were referring to.

And even "din hu" is NOT HOLY.

I am emphasizing this because of what tweek is writing and I want to address that as well. Tweek you are talking about "mystical meanings" and actually you are referring to two things which have to be differentiated between. The first is kabbalistic meanings, which go back a long way, and refer to very old concepts - there are those who see it as 12-13th century taken from the medieval kabbalistic writings, particularly from Spain, and those who believe that these concepts go much further back to the alleged origin of the Zohar in the 2nd century, with some even saying that these concepts were given in Matan Torah. These include, for example, issues having to do with metals (there are those claiming that they are from the pre-iron age and relate to demonology which was pre-iron age) and with other issues.

And then there is the chassidic concept that you mention about elevating all of one's daily acts and imbuing them with deeper spirituality. This concept, BTW is not kabbalistic in origin, it doesn't appear in the Spanish 12th century writings, but rather is an Xtian concept from the earlycrusade period after the failure of the first millenium beliefs on the second coming. Huizinga writes in depth about it. And suddenly this concept appears in Eastern European Jewish belief (different than the kabbalistic concepts I refer to earlier) in the 18th century metamorphosis of early chassidic thought. Added to it of course are many other concepts, but we know that chassidus took many things from its surroundings at the time and morphed the concept into basic chassidic thought.

None of this is mainstream Judaism though, neither Kabbalah nor the concept of elevating the mundane to the sublime and by doing so imbuing the act or the object with sacrality. It is no different than the concept that Huisinga brings of the woman cutting an apple for her little boy in the 13th century and saying that the four quarters of the apple now represent the trinity and the the piece of apple that the baby yoshkeleh was given to eat, and then peeling only the fourth quarter of the apple because little babies, even the yoshkeleh, don't eat apple peel. Same concept of the apple now becoming holy because of the "kavvono". The reasons that the Besht lechadesh'd this concept or rather drew it into yiddishkeit is well known. While his first chassidim (chassidim rishonim, R. Gershon Kitover, R. Leib Surkis, R. Ze'ev Ktizes) were learned rich and influential Jews of the time, turns out that being a faith healer (meaning of "ba'al shem or as it was written in Polish of the time, Ba'al Sam - a "dealer in potions") his main contact and consequently his main chassidim, were the uneducated poor who, after the devastation of the Ukraine following the Chemielnitzki pogroms were poor, ignorant and being alienated from Jewish practice by the educated....he kind of "dumbed down" many of his original concepts and added things which could bring the poor and uneducated closer to Judaism (such as dveikus as opposed to lamdanus) which included elevating the mundane per se, without going through the entire kabbalistic learning (which HE and his close followers, see above) obviously had and actually understanding the meaning and the concept of this elevation.

And thus we get a blanket statement with no understanding of the concept behind it, its development, and the fact that most Jews in the world including rabbis see this as anathema, where groissamomma claims "the food is HOLY"

The Besht definitely saved the Jews of the Ukraine of that time and those areas by what he did, that's for sure, but what happened to these concepts afterwards is a different story.

Back to the facts.
That's just to provide background. So while it's once again a nice chassidic custom to eat A, B and C, to say that this is exactly what the gemoro or the SA requires us to eat....a very long stretch of the imagination, and to say that mainstream Judaism believes that by eating it one imbues that particular food with sacrality...even a longer stretch of the imagination for mainstream Judaism.

So, while I fully understand the chassidic concept, the minute one talks about the food being HOLY per se is
ridiculous, whether looking from the kabbalistic point of view or even the Beshtian concept of what he was trying to do at the time.

In short, custom means tradition. Tradition in Hebrew is minhog and none of these are holy, only "traditional" or "customary" for a particular group.

Which is what I have been saying since day one here and now I've tired of repeating myself.
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Interesting historical background Freidasima. I always appreciate learning something new! I mentioned this concept to explain why some people do attach some spiritual significance to specific foods on Shabbos. The importance of keeping up these traditions extends beyond cultural maintenance.

Just an interesting point, there were many chassidic rebbes who gave numerical and symbolic reasons for eating certain foods. Of course this does not make those foods inherently more holy, but if a yid stops for a minute before he eats these foods on Shabbos, and thinks about these connections, he does infuse his act of eating on Shabbos with a deeper spiritual meaning.

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Posted: Wed, Aug 01 2012, 10:14 am Post subject: re: If you eat chulent.........

I changed my cholent radically, because the kids just weren't eating it and in the heat, it is hard to eat it. I now serve a more sefardi style (thinner broth, no barley added directly in) with meatballs, eggs, chick peas, a piece of chicken and potatoes. I season it with circum (tumeric) soy sauce, coffee powder (to tenderize the meat) salt and pepper.

I serve it on a plate, all ingredients separate, so the kids can just take what they want. Leftovers are no problem, because everything can be re-used easily...eggs can be made into egg salad, chicken, meatballs separate, potatoes can be mashed.

so now, for the first time in years, I have no cholent leftovers. b'h
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Posted: Thu, Aug 02 2012, 3:07 am Post subject: re: If you eat chulent.........

Groisamomma you take the cake!
Are you really trying to force me to write my posts in a certain way? Tsk tsk what are you a kindergarten teacher or something?

I stand by everything I say and think it is incredible azus metzach for you to state that all poskim - including the ones you mention - state categorically that one must eat all the foods you enumerated: to remind us of your post- eggs and onions, chicken soup with lukshen, cholent, kugel, salmon, etc.

My goal is the set the record straight not to write posts in the style that you seem to want to force me to write. Why is this my goal? Because in my years on this site I have noticed that imamother has become a source vis a vis a lot of things in yiddishkeit for a lot of women who don't know much about yiddishkeit, who don't have background and who look as imamother as a source. And you are stating things categorically (and then backtracking when more people than I begin to get on your case...) which are not yiddishkeit but your or your chassidic groups interpretation TODAY of yiddishkeit. You lump things together in categories which are totally misleading to anyone not knowing the background of what you are writing.

Your sources are half baked as you are picking and choosing your explanations and translations of generic terms; your explanations are faulty as they aren't giving the real and full picture (such as in the business of hot food and karaites) and it can only point to the fact that your learning seems to be half baked as well.

When challenged you retreat into your position without proof and without taking into consideration that all poskim when talking details on many subjects basically only reflect the norm of their times and are not putting down a code law that must be emulated to the Xth degree, what must be emulated is the principle behind the law - oneg shabbos in this case - but not necessarily their minutae as examples. That's the basis of understanding what HALOCHO is all about versus custom and/or tradition....something which, in spite of your "tsk tsk kindergarten teacher style posts" (with no disrespect to any kindergarten teacher, that's just the Israeli metaphore for someone trying to run the world and force people to use the phrases she puts in their mouth or write the words that she puts in their pen) you don't seem to have.

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Friedasima,

Why did you describe a minhag yisroel brought down in Shulchan Aruch as "somebody sneezed before the Holocaust?"

Posted: Fri, Aug 03 2012, 1:24 am Post subject: re: If you eat chulent.........

Because eating eggs and onions, of cholent of chicken soup and lukshen, or lukshen kugel, or specifically salmon is NOT brought down in any SA I've ever had the privilege of seeing. What you are doing here is typical of turning a pre Holocaust custom into something quasi sacred, in part because of the Holocaust that intervened, because you pre war ancestors sure didn't take it all AS seriously as you do now when it came to specific foodstuffs.
It's a well known and well written about post war phenomenon among charedim and especially chassidic ( what you are doing in terms of sanctifying pre holocaust customs or traditions which in pre holocaust real time weren't taken with such dour utmost seriousness as you and others take them postwar) to make anything pre holocaust sacred, and had your prewar ancestors seen the vehemence with which such traditions are defended today they migh lift quite an eyebrow....

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Last edited by freidasima on Fri, Aug 03 2012, 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total

Well gryp there is a little difference between what I did and what any other imamother does when she sees someone writing something that is a factual mistake and corrects it. And you will find many of us doing it all the time, in all fields. I just happen to do it in a field that I know a bit about, Jewish traditions and customs and their sources as opposed to halocho and its sources. We learned a tremendous amount about it in seminary and it always interested me, and my husband who for years taught law and halocho and its origins before he went into educational administration has spoken about it at home for over thiry years. So I would say I have pretty good sources and have been exposed ongoing to a lot on this topic even though my own specialty is psychology.

My husband, through his chinuch work has also shows us all how dangerous it is to state something categorically that is not correct in origin, because, once again, it is often a reason used by young people looking to rebel somewhat and if they were taught that everything is almost on the same level, "everything is holy"....well then they end up throwing out everything, putting not eating cholent on shabbos on the level of eating a cheeseburger because after all, if it's all holy....then chuck it all.

Dangerous ground calling everything holy. Dangerous ground not giving precise explanations about something and lumping it all together.

Had groissamomma written that it's a chassidic tradition of her group to eat certain foods on shabbos, listed and foods, and left it at that, without trying to prove that the food itself is holy, or to negate the original reasons behind why something like hot food became a chiyuv, or had she not tried to prove that something like eggs and onions or soup with lukshen going back for centuries and is written in the SA....it wouldn't have been a problem. But the minute she tries to give THE definitive definition of really amorphous generic terms used in the SA as if they were the foods she mentions, and then claims definitively that the foods themselves are holy, and then claims definitively that her ancestors for generations ate these holy foods and includes in them things like eggs and onions, or chicken soup with lukshen....that's not the kind of thing that any Jewish women with a bit of knowledge can let pass as if it is a fact.

So let her stick to things she may be good at and can prove definitively...and not make ridiculous statements such as saying claiming that the reasons for a chiyuv for hot food is NOT the karaite issue, something for example that has been disproved here by several posters and their husbands over and over.

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Posted: Fri, Aug 03 2012, 9:45 am Post subject: re: If you eat chulent.........

gryp it's dimply not true. Learned chassidim do not try to say that cholent is the precise definition of the word used by the SA or pashtida is precisely a lukshen kugel. Nor will they claim that salmon is the correct fish to use or that there is a centuries long tradition of eating chicken soup with lukshen or eggs and onions that stems from the SA. They might say that cholent is a derivative of "stew" or kugel is a derivative of "pashtida" but not that it is that precise thing. And you won't see them sayiing anything about the eggs and onions, or salmon (precisely) or lukshen soup....that kind of takes away any credibility.

They will say it's their tradition and that's fine. But a learned chossid will not make any kind of ridiculous definitive statement other than "this is our interpretation" not that it is a definitive interpretation. Nor will they demean themselves to say the narishkeit that Groissamomma tried to say about hot food having nothing to do with the karaites or that it is only secondary when anyone who learned halocho - even women! - knows that the only chiyuv came davka from the karaite schism, and not from anything else. Before it was a suggestion, not a chiyuv. After the karaites it's a chiyuv and only BECAUSE of the karaites.

But no, groissemomma has to be right about this, even if she is wrong, even if halochically she is incorrect, even if imamothers and their husbands prove that she is incorrect...and therefore her vehemence over other things loses its potency as well.

You have to differentiate between ignorant, half learned and learned. There are very learned chassidim and you can be sure that they know their SA backwards and forwards, also the meforshim. You will not find them saying that.

They may state that there is a chassidic tradition to eat certain foods, they may state that their rebbes said that these are the foods "we" eat. But no learned chossid or rebbe will state categorically that X in the SA means precisely Y that they eat.....simply because (as any learned chossid knows), the SA is not the source used for these foods!

Now ask me what the source is and I will tell you. The zohar, not the SA. Which is why I found this whole discussion so funny (I.e. strange and uninformed). But the foods that the zohar refer to are a whole different bunch of stuff, and kabbalists believe that those foods (NOT the ones that Groissamomma listed) actually do have kedusha per se (but for kabalistic reasons). Chassidim rishonim (I.e. R. Gershon Kitover, R. Leib Surkis, R. Ze'ev Kitzes) held this way for kabbalistic reasons and it was said that the Besht held that way as well.

There were rebbes - few and far between actually - and some other rabbonim of the past two centuries (example - debate whether R. Yoilish of Satmar could be considered a chassidic rebbe, some claim yes, others claim no) who were kabbalists (R. Yoilish was one of them, just BTW) and on shabbos they had a kabbalistic seuda of kedusha, apart from the regular seuda. However this is NOT what Groissamomma was talking about and again, it is not the nachla of your average chossid, only the few and far between very learned kabbalists among this group.

To clarify - I was NOT and am NOT referring to these kabbalists and how they hold vis a vis shabbos food and specific foods of kedusha. I am not a kabbalist and do not comment on that.

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It doesn't matter whether or not you and I agree with it. This is their way. The source is the Shulchan Aruch, Aruch Hashulchan, and certain Chassidic works.

You know that Chassidim many times pasken according to Kabbalah. You know that for many things Chassidim imitate their Rebbe. For them (us), this is the Chassidic way of life, doesn't matter what others say. I'm not familiar with other Sifrei Chassidus but since Chassidus generally brings lots of Kabbalah down, it makes sense that one of the Chassidic Rebbeim way back expanded the Shabbos menu of the Besht and gave each food a symbolic meaning.

(Perhaps many years ago the great Chassidic Rebbeim were able to draw down high levels of kedusha through eating this specific Shabbos food and therefore Chassidim today keep the food as a minhag in an attempt to do the same.)

Let each one be the expert on their own way of life. No one here is a birdbrain and needs to be told how to live their life.

(FTR, I also learned that the reason for having hot food on Shabbos was to show that we accept Torah Shebaal Peh. And the only reason I make kugels every Shabbos is because they are easy to prepare, can be eaten cold, and can fill lots of little stomachs.)

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Posted: Fri, Aug 03 2012, 11:53 am Post subject: re: If you eat chulent.........

Groissemomma you are so off the mark that I'm not even going to answer again, you want to wear me down? You didn't but it's shabbos here so I'm off.

Just to finish off. Half of what you write here in your post is a distortion and a quarter is narishkeit. I'm not even going to deal with it anymore. You backtrack and then you change what you write and then you quote selectively. Welcome to the internet where anything goes! You just proved it!

You even denied here that you wrote something which anyone with eyes can see that it appears in your first post - your reference to eggs and onions!

And as for your trying to re-write me or give your own explanations to what you think I meant - all wrong, all incorrect, all a fabrication of your imagination!

And what an imagination you have...I wonder if that's how you got to all your explanations of this sefer and that sefer, half of which are figments of your own imagination. Do you have any idea at all what the oruch hashulchan is? That one doesn't pasken from it? It's background? And yet you quote it as if it is a definitely across the board accepted source. For chassidim! What a Joke! Do you know what chassidish rebbes thought of the oruch hashulchan??!!! Boy maybe you should go back to school and learn some more...

What you write here is a combination of distortion and a misquote and I'm going to be DLKZ and say that you may be dislectic or whatever so that's why you are doing it, not because you are deliberately trying to misquote.

Have a good shabbos whatever you eat, whatever you believe.