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| mummiedearest |
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 Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 11:48 am Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| Lady Bug wrote: | | mummiedearest wrote: | let's spray perfume on all our computers so our husbands don't go on the internet. voila. we don't need a filter. we can also spray perfume on all those halal food carts around the city, anything not to our kashrus standards (I eat chalav stam, you may want to spray my whole house), and billboards of non-tznius women. we ca spray our light-switches before shabbos, and if we don't want our husbands to wear certain shirts that don't *ahem* fit properly, we can spray those up, too. for anyone with a dh who doesn't shower quite frequently enough, just spray the whole house aside from the bathroom. that'll get him to shower.
ladies, we've found a new way to control our husbands! let the fun begin... |
You got it wrong its the other way around. I.e. spray up the bathroom so that he is tempted to go in there and take a shower. |
no, no! that would be causing him to smell something assur! perfume is assur, hence he is not allowed to smell it, hence he has to avoid all areas where there might be perfume. we can force our husbands into whichever spot we want them, ladies!
please note my sympathies to those who have anosmic husbands. you're missing out on the best thing since sliced bread. (we used that to force our husbands to make their own sandwiches  )
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 11:50 am Post subject: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| I would also like to point out that in order to drink perfume, it must have a proper kashrus certification.
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| friendlyr |
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 11:51 am Post subject: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| inexorablyme wrote: | See, and I remember hearing a shiur from Reb. Zahava Braunstein, that not wearing perfume while niddah is a chumra that some have. And that for a woman who NEEDS perfume to feel clean, to feel like a put together human being, that such a person should probably not take upon herself that chumra if its not a family minhag. Some women wear perfume daily, and it is much a part of their daily routine as brushing their teeth.
That being said, where is the line? Scented deodorants are assur? Body lotion assur? We should all use unscented soap? | it makes more sence that it should be a chumra. people have chumras witheverything.
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| Ruchel |
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 11:54 am Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| smss wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | The problem is, what if Mr Blum lives in a kehila where tights need to be 90 deniers or it's untznius, and he passes by Mrs Klein whose rabbi told her she needs to wear 50 deniers only. He'll have seen something untznius. And still Mrs Klein cannot catter to the highest standard ever in case someone passes by and has this standard... |
Sorry but I don't get the comparison. It's not assur for a man to see a woman's calves especially if they are covered with 50 denier tights, and it is assur for a man to smell a woman's perfume.
(Just practically, it's a bit easier for a man to avert his eyes when he walks in the street than to hold his breath...) |
Ok so take the example as: she is allowed to go bare legged. But he isn't allowed to see it.
I can see why it would be assur for a man to breathe in the perfume on purpose, just like watching is assur. But seeing/breathing by mistake in the street? If it IS assur, then let them deal with that. Women have their own halachot already. You don't need a burka so they don't see, for example.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 11:59 am Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| Ruchel wrote: | | smss wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | The problem is, what if Mr Blum lives in a kehila where tights need to be 90 deniers or it's untznius, and he passes by Mrs Klein whose rabbi told her she needs to wear 50 deniers only. He'll have seen something untznius. And still Mrs Klein cannot catter to the highest standard ever in case someone passes by and has this standard... |
Sorry but I don't get the comparison. It's not assur for a man to see a woman's calves especially if they are covered with 50 denier tights, and it is assur for a man to smell a woman's perfume.
(Just practically, it's a bit easier for a man to avert his eyes when he walks in the street than to hold his breath...) |
Ok so take the example as: she is allowed to go bare legged. But he isn't allowed to see it.
I can see why it would be assur for a man to breathe in the perfume on purpose, just like watching is assur. But seeing/breathing by mistake in the street? If it IS assur, then let them deal with that. Women have their own halachot already. You don't need a burka so they don't see, for example. |
smss--so the halal food carts shouldn't be allowed to operate because we are not allowed to enjoy the scent of milk and meat together, right? many of those dishes are meat with yogurt. I don't walk by and breathe in deeply, but I'm also not going to hold my nose as I walk by. nor will I walk closer to the cart to catch the scent.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| Ruchel wrote: | | smss wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | The problem is, what if Mr Blum lives in a kehila where tights need to be 90 deniers or it's untznius, and he passes by Mrs Klein whose rabbi told her she needs to wear 50 deniers only. He'll have seen something untznius. And still Mrs Klein cannot catter to the highest standard ever in case someone passes by and has this standard... |
Sorry but I don't get the comparison. It's not assur for a man to see a woman's calves especially if they are covered with 50 denier tights, and it is assur for a man to smell a woman's perfume.
(Just practically, it's a bit easier for a man to avert his eyes when he walks in the street than to hold his breath...) |
Ok so take the example as: she is allowed to go bare legged. But he isn't allowed to see it.
I can see why it would be assur for a man to breathe in the perfume on purpose, just like watching is assur. But seeing/breathing by mistake in the street? If it IS assur, then let them deal with that. Women have their own halachot already. You don't need a burka so they don't see, for example. |
Me'ikar hadin she probably IS allowed to go barelegged - stockings are minhag hamakom. Calves are not ervah. So I still don't get your example.
Obviously a mistake is a mistake, just like bumping into a light switch on Shabbos is different than walking up to it and flicking it on. But what is he supposed to do after the first second? What if the man is a taxi driver and the smell fills up his whole taxi? Do you want him to drive with one hand on the wheel and one hand holding his nose?
Please.
We should be trying to make keeping the Torah easier for each other, not harder.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| mummiedearest wrote: |
smss--so the halal food carts shouldn't be allowed to operate because we are not allowed to enjoy the scent of milk and meat together, right? many of those dishes are meat with yogurt. I don't walk by and breathe in deeply, but I'm also not going to hold my nose as I walk by. nor will I walk closer to the cart to catch the scent. |
Sorry but I'm just not understanding anyone's mashalim today.
What are you trying to say? That the Muslims are not following halacha?!
Um...right?
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:08 pm Post subject: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| YES. We should make Torah observance easier, not turn people off by forcing women to stop doing anything a rabbi could deem forbidden for a man to see or smell. Exactly what I meant!
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| Ruchel wrote: | | YES. We should make Torah observance easier, not turn people off by forcing women to stop doing anything a rabbi could deem forbidden for a man to see or smell. Exactly what I meant! |
Nope - we weren't saying the same thing...
Making Torah observance easier doesn't mean we do what's easier for us regardless of what halacha says.
If your rabbi says it's fine far be it from me to argue. But this is just silly.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| smss wrote: | | mummiedearest wrote: |
smss--so the halal food carts shouldn't be allowed to operate because we are not allowed to enjoy the scent of milk and meat together, right? many of those dishes are meat with yogurt. I don't walk by and breathe in deeply, but I'm also not going to hold my nose as I walk by. nor will I walk closer to the cart to catch the scent. |
Sorry but I'm just not understanding anyone's mashalim today.
What are you trying to say? That the Muslims are not following halacha?!
Um...right? |
I'm saying that the issur is mine, not their's. the issue with perfume is men's, not women's. we can't say it's assur for us just because it may be problematic for some men. it may not be appropriate in all circumstances, but that doesn't make it assur.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| smss wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | smss wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | The problem is, what if Mr Blum lives in a kehila where tights need to be 90 deniers or it's untznius, and he passes by Mrs Klein whose rabbi told her she needs to wear 50 deniers only. He'll have seen something untznius. And still Mrs Klein cannot catter to the highest standard ever in case someone passes by and has this standard... |
Sorry but I don't get the comparison. It's not assur for a man to see a woman's calves especially if they are covered with 50 denier tights, and it is assur for a man to smell a woman's perfume.
(Just practically, it's a bit easier for a man to avert his eyes when he walks in the street than to hold his breath...) |
Ok so take the example as: she is allowed to go bare legged. But he isn't allowed to see it.
I can see why it would be assur for a man to breathe in the perfume on purpose, just like watching is assur. But seeing/breathing by mistake in the street? If it IS assur, then let them deal with that. Women have their own halachot already. You don't need a burka so they don't see, for example. |
Me'ikar hadin she probably IS allowed to go barelegged - stockings are minhag hamakom. Calves are not ervah. So I still don't get your example.
Obviously a mistake is a mistake, just like bumping into a light switch on Shabbos is different than walking up to it and flicking it on. But what is he supposed to do after the first second? What if the man is a taxi driver and the smell fills up his whole taxi? Do you want him to drive with one hand on the wheel and one hand holding his nose?
Please.
We should be trying to make keeping the Torah easier for each other, not harder. | Exactly. I can think of a few BTs and gerrim that would have been turned off to frum judaism if they were told that they are not allowed to wear perfume.
Im sorry but this whole thread makes me see that many people in judaism have completely lost the plot of what is truly important in judaism and observance.
This goes way beyond the letter of the law. This goes into places that are beyond extreme.
perfume????? Really???? Whats next?????? Women wont be able to wear scented deodarant or nice smelling shampoo?????????????????????????? COME ONNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| smss wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | YES. We should make Torah observance easier, not turn people off by forcing women to stop doing anything a rabbi could deem forbidden for a man to see or smell. Exactly what I meant! |
Making Torah observance easier doesn't mean we do what's easier for us regardless of what halacha says. . |
I agree. Nor does it mean doing what's harder for us regardless of what halacha says.
Again, if your rabbi allows it, you do it (if you want to do it). And if others hold differently -their business!
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| mummiedearest wrote: | | smss wrote: | | mummiedearest wrote: |
smss--so the halal food carts shouldn't be allowed to operate because we are not allowed to enjoy the scent of milk and meat together, right? many of those dishes are meat with yogurt. I don't walk by and breathe in deeply, but I'm also not going to hold my nose as I walk by. nor will I walk closer to the cart to catch the scent. |
Sorry but I'm just not understanding anyone's mashalim today.
What are you trying to say? That the Muslims are not following halacha?!
Um...right? |
I'm saying that the issur is mine, not their's. the issue with perfume is men's, not women's. we can't say it's assur for us just because it may be problematic for some men. it may not be appropriate in all circumstances, but that doesn't make it assur. |
Just...I wouldn't really expect it from the Muslims to try to make it easier for us to keep halacha.
I agree with you that the issue with perfume is men's not women's. The women who don't wear perfume in public are doing so not because it's assur for them to wear it, but because they would like to make it easier for the men around them to keep halacha. Cuz we're all Jews and we're on the same side here.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| smss wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | smss wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | The problem is, what if Mr Blum lives in a kehila where tights need to be 90 deniers or it's untznius, and he passes by Mrs Klein whose rabbi told her she needs to wear 50 deniers only. He'll have seen something untznius. And still Mrs Klein cannot catter to the highest standard ever in case someone passes by and has this standard... |
Sorry but I don't get the comparison. It's not assur for a man to see a woman's calves especially if they are covered with 50 denier tights, and it is assur for a man to smell a woman's perfume.
(Just practically, it's a bit easier for a man to avert his eyes when he walks in the street than to hold his breath...) |
Ok so take the example as: she is allowed to go bare legged. But he isn't allowed to see it.
I can see why it would be assur for a man to breathe in the perfume on purpose, just like watching is assur. But seeing/breathing by mistake in the street? If it IS assur, then let them deal with that. Women have their own halachot already. You don't need a burka so they don't see, for example. |
Me'ikar hadin she probably IS allowed to go barelegged - stockings are minhag hamakom. Calves are not ervah. So I still don't get your example.
Obviously a mistake is a mistake, just like bumping into a light switch on Shabbos is different than walking up to it and flicking it on. But what is he supposed to do after the first second? What if the man is a taxi driver and the smell fills up his whole taxi? Do you want him to drive with one hand on the wheel and one hand holding his nose?
Please.
We should be trying to make keeping the Torah easier for each other, not harder. |
My Rabbi does not require me to cover my collarbone. Do I have to wear higher shirts because a man's Rabbi says its assur? Sorry, not happening.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 1:55 pm Post subject: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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Every time you are machmir on one thing, you are meikil on something else. So be machmir on not wearing perfume. You are being meikil on shalom bayis, kiddush hashem, and assimilation. The harder you make it for people to stay on the derech, the easier you make it for people to leave.
Also, help me out here, ladies. Are your husbands going to zera levatalah all over themselves from the scent of a woman's perfume? Really? Ew.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| marina wrote: | Every time you are machmir on one thing, you are meikil on something else. So be machmir on not wearing perfume. You are being meikil on shalom bayis, kiddush hashem, and assimilation. The harder you make it for people to stay on the derech, the easier you make it for people to leave.
Also, help me out here, ladies. Are your husbands going to zera levatalah all over themselves from the scent of a woman's perfume? Really? Ew. | 
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| enneamom |
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 2:38 pm Post subject: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| gp2.0 wrote: | Yes. Hey, let's make a perfume bonfire!
Boy will that be a lot of very expensive smoke.
On the plus side, the neighborhood will smell great for weeks. |
What a great idea for July 4th firecrackers. Dior-scented, uncontrolled explosions! With lots of colorful shattered glass confetti.    
On a more serious note, I think we are confusing two different ideas here, ladies.
There MAY (I don't know since I haven't looked it up, or asked a shailah whether it's a chumrah or halachah) be an issur for a man to smell the pefume of a woman who is not his non-niddah wife.
Addtionally, there MAY (again, subject to shailah-asking or looking up) be an ADDITIONAL issur for a Jewish woman (because Arabs and such are generally not subject to our negative commandments  ) to wear the sort of perfume that would cause him to smell her. The name of that issur is Lifnei Iver Lo Sitein Michshal, I.e. don't put a stumbling block before a blind person, meaning don't do anything which would cause another to sin. It's an actual lav deoraysah--a negative commandment written in the Torah shebi'chsav, the Written Law, not an enactment of the Sages. So it's not just a matter of being a good sport and making it easier for your fellow Jew to do the right thing.
What the exact parameters of this lav are, is something that should be discussed with a competant Rav. Obviously not everything falls into the category of Lifnei Iver, and not everything doesn't. But that's what we, thankfully, have scholars for: to clarify the applications of laws that are unclear.
That would be the difference between Mr. Blum smelling the perfume of/seeing an immodestly dressed Mrs. Klein, or smelling.../seeing... Ms. McCoy. (let's leave Mr. Holmes out of this for the moment, shall we? )
In both situations, he is responsible for his own actions and must control himself not to pay attention, beyond the first casual glance or whiff. He and every other Jew/Jewess, barring exceptions, is responsible for his or her own actions in every single area of life. Bechira (free choice) is a cornerstone of Judaism.
But in the case of Mrs. Klein, there is an additional factor, in that Mrs. Klein herself MAY be transgressing the issur of Lifnei Iver if she dresses or perfumes beyond what her LOR paskens is OK. And since this is her own issur of Lifnei Iver, presumably the parameters go according to what HER Rav paskens, and not Mr. Blum's. I can't be positive, but it would seem to me that that's the case. I assume it would be an extra level of sensitivity and consideration to be careful with any extra degree of tznius Mr. Blum holds by, but it wouldn't be halachically mandated.
As for the permissability of wearing perfume or exposing calves or any other tznius standard, I do not know enough to debate that. I can feel for those of you who may be turned off of frumkeit by such standards  ...so that's why you should ask your own LOR and not just follow some random post on Imamother. But either way I don't think one can really argue the question intelligently before looking up sources or asking their LOR. Halachah's not a matter of opinion.
It's definitely not a matter of MY opinion, anyway! But I'll get back to you after I've been doing a daily seder in Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, Mishneh Berurah, and maybe some Gemara, for a while. Or maybe I'll just go for that semichah certificate. Know of any good online programs?
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 2:42 pm Post subject: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| Mr Holmes got surgery. He now needs to be tznius, too.
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| smss wrote: | | mummiedearest wrote: | | smss wrote: | | mummiedearest wrote: |
smss--so the halal food carts shouldn't be allowed to operate because we are not allowed to enjoy the scent of milk and meat together, right? many of those dishes are meat with yogurt. I don't walk by and breathe in deeply, but I'm also not going to hold my nose as I walk by. nor will I walk closer to the cart to catch the scent. |
Sorry but I'm just not understanding anyone's mashalim today.
What are you trying to say? That the Muslims are not following halacha?!
Um...right? |
I'm saying that the issur is mine, not their's. the issue with perfume is men's, not women's. we can't say it's assur for us just because it may be problematic for some men. it may not be appropriate in all circumstances, but that doesn't make it assur. |
Just...I wouldn't really expect it from the Muslims to try to make it easier for us to keep halacha.
I agree with you that the issue with perfume is men's not women's. The women who don't wear perfume in public are doing so not because it's assur for them to wear it, but because they would like to make it easier for the men around them to keep halacha. Cuz we're all Jews and we're on the same side here. |
would you expect a non-chassidish woman to adhere to chassidishe standards tto help chassidishe men keep halacha? men and women are apples and oranges. if my dh wanted me to refrain from wearing perfume in public, I'd probably listen. I have never heard of this as a halachic discussion pertaining to women. it is NOT our job to take on extra chumras so the men have it easier. they can keep their noses to themselves.
re: the bolded. I'll believe that when mashiach comes. maybe then men won't blame all the problems of the world on women's "lack" of tznius...
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| Posted: Tue, Jun 19 2012, 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: re: is perfume assur?!?! |
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| Ruchel wrote: | | Mr Holmes got surgery. He now needs to be tznius, too. |
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