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Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
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sarahd
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 6:19 am    Post subject: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
Can Israeli imamothers tell me what 4.5 year old boys attending Israeli chadarim are expected to know in terms of kriah? Are children this age ending their first or their second year of cheder?
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Strawberry2
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
sarahd wrote:
Can Israeli imamothers tell me what 4.5 year old boys attending Israeli chadarim are expected to know in terms of kriah? Are children this age ending their first or their second year of cheder?

tehillim, chumash, but still bring home review sheets of words every week.
THis is the class before 1st grade?
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shalhevet
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 6:26 am    Post subject: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
From around 3-4 is gan - learning aleph-bais - just the letters.

4-5 is mechina - learning letter-vowel combinations, with them pretty much knowing how to read by this stage of the year.

5-6 is kitta aleph - it is assumed they know how to read at the beginning of the year and they start chumash.

The cut-off date is important. When I say 3 to start gan, that might be 3.5 or even 3.75 depending on the child and the cut-off date which varies from cheder to cheder. So a 4.5 year old might be in gan.

Also some chadarim have mechina aleph and mechina beis and kitta aleph is a year later.
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Isramom8
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 6:36 am    Post subject: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
What Shalhevet said. But you can try to put your son in the class below his age, if he needs to catch up. Or get a private rebbe to catch him up, if he is just a little bit behind.
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sarahd
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
Strawberry2 wrote:
sarahd wrote:
Can Israeli imamothers tell me what 4.5 year old boys attending Israeli chadarim are expected to know in terms of kriah? Are children this age ending their first or their second year of cheder?

tehillim, chumash, but still bring home review sheets of words every week.
THis is the class before 1st grade?


Over here, this is three years before first grade. Children start school at age 7.

I am asking because my son is in the first year of preschool. Until now the children were expected to know all the letters of the alef bais and some nekudos, but there was no pressure. This year, the preschool hired a hotshot "kriah expert" from Israel and suddenly my son is being pressured to know all the nekudos and being told he can't go on to the next class if he doesn't know everything. I was wondering where the idea that four year olds should be expected to know all nekudos was coming from.
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Strawberry2
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
sarahd wrote:
Strawberry2 wrote:
sarahd wrote:
Can Israeli imamothers tell me what 4.5 year old boys attending Israeli chadarim are expected to know in terms of kriah? Are children this age ending their first or their second year of cheder?

tehillim, chumash, but still bring home review sheets of words every week.
THis is the class before 1st grade?


Over here, this is three years before first grade. Children start school at age 7.

I am asking because my son is in the first year of preschool. Until now the children were expected to know all the letters of the alef bais and some nekudos, but there was no pressure. This year, the preschool hired a hotshot "kriah expert" from Israel and suddenly my son is being pressured to know all the nekudos and being told he can't go on to the next class if he doesn't know everything. I was wondering where the idea that four year olds should be expected to know all nekudos was coming from.

The level keeps going up here.
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Mrs.K
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 9:38 am    Post subject: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
My son is 5 1/2 but he was held back a year so his class is 4 1/2. This is 2 classes before 1st grade. (In his cheder, this is called gan alef. Next year is gan bais, the year after that is kita alef.)

They have completed all the letters and nekudos by now and are reviewing all the sounds together. They spend a lot of time reviewing, both in the class and working with each student individually.
They have not yet started putting together actual words.
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EvenI
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
Mrs.K wrote:
My son is 5 1/2 but he was held back a year so his class is 4 1/2. This is 2 classes before 1st grade. (In his cheder, this is called gan alef. Next year is gan bais, the year after that is kita alef.)

They have completed all the letters and nekudos by now and are reviewing all the sounds together. They spend a lot of time reviewing, both in the class and working with each student individually.
They have not yet started putting together actual words.


I guess it varies quite a bit. Mine is 4 1/2 and is at a similar point but not quite the same. His class is called gan. Next year is called Mechina. The year after is kita aleph. They have learned all the letters and just kometz and done a huge amount of reviewing. I think they are about to learn patach. I am guessing that by the end of the year, they'll know all the nekudos and they'll put words together next year, but I'm not sure.
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Health is a Virture
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 12:27 pm    Post subject: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
my son's cheder:
The cut-off is nissan which means that in gan, you must turn four before nissan

3 1/2 - 4 1/2--learn all the aleph bais and all the nekudos
4 1/2 - 5 1/2-- mechina, join letters with vowels together until the end of the year you are reading very, very fluently.
kita aleph--expected to be able to read very quickly and fluently by the start of the year since they go very quickly in chumash and start learning breishis on the first day and finished the entire sefer breishis by the end of kita aleph (they also spend around 3 hours a day doing chumash)

in other chadarim, the cut off may be slightly different and in gan they may not learn all of the nekudos, but also before entering first grade they are expected to be able to read fluently and start chumash upon entering first grade (some chadarim may do some chumash in mechina at the end of the year)
the girls don't "learn" to read till first grade and many of them are almost 7 by then. the cut off for the girls is that you should be 6 by the time you start first grade (or by Teves of first grade), but the younger girls who are not yet 6 usually have a difficult time dealing with first grade because you are expected to be 7 really.
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EvenI
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
sarahd wrote:
Strawberry2 wrote:
sarahd wrote:
Can Israeli imamothers tell me what 4.5 year old boys attending Israeli chadarim are expected to know in terms of kriah? Are children this age ending their first or their second year of cheder?

tehillim, chumash, but still bring home review sheets of words every week.
THis is the class before 1st grade?


Over here, this is three years before first grade. Children start school at age 7.

I am asking because my son is in the first year of preschool. Until now the children were expected to know all the letters of the alef bais and some nekudos, but there was no pressure. This year, the preschool hired a hotshot "kriah expert" from Israel and suddenly my son is being pressured to know all the nekudos and being told he can't go on to the next class if he doesn't know everything. I was wondering where the idea that four year olds should be expected to know all nekudos was coming from.


In our cheder, they review it so much and make it so exciting for the kids, that I can't imagine them not knowing it thoroughly, and the pace doesn't seem pressured to me at all. In what way are they pressuring a 4 yr old into knowing something? How do you do that exactly?
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sarahd
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 3:56 pm    Post subject: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
You tell him that he's the only child in the class who doesn't know all the nekudos. You tell him that if he doesn't hurry up and learn all the nekudos he can't go to the next class. You let him know he's a failure because he still confuses shin and sin, and hasn't gotten past kamatz, pasach and tzeirei. There are lots of ways to pressure a kid.
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Isramom8
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PostPosted: Wed, Jun 06 2012, 4:04 pm    Post subject: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
I have not found pressure in the chadarim at this age. They make it fun. You can take extra help, or keep your son back another year, without pressure.
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EvenI
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PostPosted: Thu, Jun 07 2012, 1:26 am    Post subject: Re: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
sarahd wrote:
You tell him that he's the only child in the class who doesn't know all the nekudos. You tell him that if he doesn't hurry up and learn all the nekudos he can't go to the next class. You let him know he's a failure because he still confuses shin and sin, and hasn't gotten past kamatz, pasach and tzeirei. There are lots of ways to pressure a kid.


That doesn't sound remotely like educational expertise. How could it help him learn?
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amother
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PostPosted: Thu, Jun 07 2012, 2:57 am    Post subject: Re: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
EvenI wrote:
I guess it varies quite a bit. Mine is 4 1/2 and is at a similar point but not quite the same. His class is called gan. Next year is called Mechina. The year after is kita aleph. They have learned all the letters and just kometz and done a huge amount of reviewing. I think they are about to learn patach. I am guessing that by the end of the year, they'll know all the nekudos and they'll put words together next year, but I'm not sure.


This is almost exactly what my 4 1/2 year old son is up to. He's in the second year of gan, next year is mechina and the following year is kittah alef.
They spent a lot of time reviewing kamatz and about a week ago started patach. ds is very excited to be learning patach, and I think it is really fun for him. There's a lot of one-on-one time spent reviewing with each kid, and also time spent reviewing with the whole class.

EvenI wrote:
sarahd wrote:
You tell him that he's the only child in the class who doesn't know all the nekudos. You tell him that if he doesn't hurry up and learn all the nekudos he can't go to the next class. You let him know he's a failure because he still confuses shin and sin, and hasn't gotten past kamatz, pasach and tzeirei. There are lots of ways to pressure a kid.


That doesn't sound remotely like educational expertise. How could it help him learn?

I don't think sarahd meant to imply that this would be a good thing to do. Sad
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EvenI
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PostPosted: Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
amother wrote:
EvenI wrote:
I guess it varies quite a bit. Mine is 4 1/2 and is at a similar point but not quite the same. His class is called gan. Next year is called Mechina. The year after is kita aleph. They have learned all the letters and just kometz and done a huge amount of reviewing. I think they are about to learn patach. I am guessing that by the end of the year, they'll know all the nekudos and they'll put words together next year, but I'm not sure.


This is almost exactly what my 4 1/2 year old son is up to. He's in the second year of gan, next year is mechina and the following year is kittah alef.
They spent a lot of time reviewing kamatz and about a week ago started patach. ds is very excited to be learning patach, and I think it is really fun for him. There's a lot of one-on-one time spent reviewing with each kid, and also time spent reviewing with the whole class.

EvenI wrote:
sarahd wrote:
You tell him that he's the only child in the class who doesn't know all the nekudos. You tell him that if he doesn't hurry up and learn all the nekudos he can't go to the next class. You let him know he's a failure because he still confuses shin and sin, and hasn't gotten past kamatz, pasach and tzeirei. There are lots of ways to pressure a kid.


That doesn't sound remotely like educational expertise. How could it help him learn?

I don't think sarahd meant to imply that this would be a good thing to do. Sad


Yes, I realize that. I would have serious issues with the cheder, if it were me.

OP, are there any behavioral reasons why he hasn't reached these milestones? A maturity/concentration issue? Do you have any idea why it started to get hard for him to keep up?
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sarahd
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PostPosted: Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
EvenI wrote:
sarahd wrote:
You tell him that he's the only child in the class who doesn't know all the nekudos. You tell him that if he doesn't hurry up and learn all the nekudos he can't go to the next class. You let him know he's a failure because he still confuses shin and sin, and hasn't gotten past kamatz, pasach and tzeirei. There are lots of ways to pressure a kid.


That doesn't sound remotely like educational expertise. How could it help him learn?


To be fair, it's the rebbi telling him that, not the kriah expert (who's not on location; he comes in from Israel every few weeks and works with the rebbeim.)
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sarahd
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PostPosted: Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:35 am    Post subject: Re: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
EvenI wrote:

OP, are there any behavioral reasons why he hasn't reached these milestones? A maturity/concentration issue? Do you have any idea why it started to get hard for him to keep up?


Um, maybe because he's only four and the correct developmental age for children to start learning to read is actually six? Plenty of kids learn to read earlier, but it's not necessarily indicative of a problem if a four year old is having trouble reading.
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EvenI
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PostPosted: Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
sarahd wrote:
EvenI wrote:

OP, are there any behavioral reasons why he hasn't reached these milestones? A maturity/concentration issue? Do you have any idea why it started to get hard for him to keep up?


Um, maybe because he's only four and the correct developmental age for children to start learning to read is actually six? Plenty of kids learn to read earlier, but it's not necessarily indicative of a problem if a four year old is having trouble reading.


Please don't misunderstand me. I'm just asking. I'm not suggesting it is indicative of an intrinsic lasting problem. I was just wondering if you had a more specific sense of how he got out of sync. You seem to be saying that you think he just doesn't get it yet because of his cognitive development, but it might have been, for example, that he is not mature enough yet to sit and concentrate for as long as the Rebbi expects, in which case, maybe he'd more clearly be a good candidate for staying back a year.
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sarahd
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PostPosted: Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:53 am    Post subject: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
He does have a concentration problem, but I can't keep him back a year. He has a brother a year younger starting cheder next year and it would be an absolute disaster to have them together. I couldn't do that to my older son.
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Strawberry2
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PostPosted: Thu, Jun 07 2012, 5:41 am    Post subject: Re: re: Kriah goals in Israeli chadarim
 
sarahd wrote:
He does have a concentration problem, but I can't keep him back a year. He has a brother a year younger starting cheder next year and it would be an absolute disaster to have them together. I couldn't do that to my older son.

That is unfortunately a big problem. I know someone who has that with her girls & she pays a fortune on tutoring for her older one.
Do you have a tutor you can take?
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