DD says we mistreated her

Posted: Sun, May 13 2012, 10:14 pm Post subject: DD says we mistreated her

DD, the youngest of many, was a behavior problem from pre-schoool on. In pre-school, teachers said she was too quiet and has to come out of her shell. She didnt have friends. Little by little not only did she come out of her shell, by the time she was in her early elementary years, she became class clown and loved the attention it got her. Then she became teacher's terrorist. Throughout this time we were going to psychologists, all telling us she'll grow out of it and they dont see any serious issues. I was aware of kids in my family who had social and behavior issues when they were younger and all did fine when they got older. This is not what happened with DD. The older she got the more defiant and Chutzpahdik she got.

DH is a non- disciplinarian who felt we shouldnt irritate her by disciplining her, because it will make things worse and she'll grow out of it sooner or later. In elementary school the principal told me if I want to keep her in the school I have to be reachable throughout the school day, every day, and be able to get home quickly if a teacher punishes her and sends her home. I lived in fear of seeing the school name on Caller Id, knowing that she caused problems in school. High school was worse.... I lived for 10 years straight in fear of being called by the school she was going to, always asking and davening �why me�? and always trying new psychologists, dreaming of new success, throughout these 10 years of elementary and high school (she was sent home regularly). I was always tense about what was coming that day, that week, that month, and knew that when my husband gets to the principal he sings her praises and says what kind of good-hearted girl she is and reassured the principal that he thinks this will all pass. But it happened again and again and again.

Now fast forward to her upper teen years she says we mistreated her- she specifically is bothered by me pulling her hair once and my husband not getting involved. She wants us to �acknowledge this�, perhaps by apologizing to her in front of her therapist. This was something I regret terribly. This happened about ten years ago and I havent touched her in many years. I think she would like to see my husband and I separate and divorce- that would be the best revenge on both of us. She has always been manipulative. I might be fantasizing but perhaps she wants this on record so she can write a book.

How do we respond? How do I/we try to make it up to her without having her say forever �I told you, theyre even agreeing that they were wrong and mistreated me� and shoving it in our faces every time she is unhappy with anything we do?

Even today she gives us much heartache and is Chutzpahdik all the time, purposely saying things she knows annoys us and complains about everything we do�.We live in fear of her outbursts.

How do you all suggest that we �acknowledge this�?

I want to hear your opinions before I talk to her therapist.

Posted: Sun, May 13 2012, 10:21 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

Be very, very careful not to incriminate yourself. She may be leading you into a trap just waiting for you and/or dh to incriminate yourselves. What may come across to the therapist as a victim could indeed be a perpetrator of abuse to you and your dh. No good will come of commenting on her upbringing as I'm sure you did the best you knew how as a mother. But feeding her revenge and manipulation will not do anyone any good.

It's one thing if she needs the "closure" of your apology; but from what you write it seems as if she simply feeds off it to excuse her inexcusable behavior. I chuckled when I read your comment about a book...but then I read on and you may not be so far off.

Posted: Sun, May 13 2012, 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: DD says we mistreated her

Posted: Sun, May 13 2012, 10:24 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

This post is quite "heavy stuff".
I don't understand why you want/need the opinion of a bunch of women that are not qualified to really help you, when you have the therapists you use guiding you.
There are a lot of issues here, the relationship with your husband, daughter, and her relationship with both of you together, and separately.
I am not sure how and what I would advise you, but it seems like your daughter has a severe problem, either a personality disorder, or just a manipulative and rotten character.
I really feel for your pain and heartache, and it does not seem that you are a "bad" mother just because you got upset and overreacted one time.
The problem is more likely to be your continued dread of her misbehaviour as opposed to you sitting down with her and telling her what is absolutely unacceptable, and offering her rewards for proper behaviour.
This is a chronic issue, not a one time thing, and you need the advice of a mentor, Rav, or other educational mechanech that is experienced with teens.
Also I am not sure that the therapy has been helpful for all of you.
I really wish you lots of hatzlacha, and hope you will have nachas from her one day.

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I think it is almost impossible for us to give advice without hearing the other side of the story. Clearly, there are a lot of issues at play, and this seems like a situation for professionals, not amothers who have only heard one side.
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Posted: Sun, May 13 2012, 11:20 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

I dont think you need to go to her therapist to apologize to her. If you feel sorry for pulling her hair and it is a memory that really affects her, you can tell her sorry at home. If you are really worried about her being manipulative you should see your own therapist please, mechanchim and rabbanim are not trained.

Diamond Member Joined: Mar 08 2010 Posts: 2535

I just wanted to clarify whether you would be meeting with the therapist alone or with your daughter in attendance? It seems to me that the best course of action would be to initially meet with her therapist by yourself (or with your husband) to discuss this issue, your concerns and how to best deal with it and then at a later date to have a joint session with your daughter �acknowledging� this incident in accordance with her therapists advice.
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Posted: Sun, May 13 2012, 11:31 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

The "Red Flags" are that the parents are afraid of the child, and that the daughter is trying to break up the marriage.

I don't think the daughter should be living at home anymore.

I do not know where she should be living; Bring that up with the therapist.

If she is finished school, or above 18, let her get a job and support herself.

You are entitled to some peace.

Keep the door open. But she has to live on her own.

Bracha

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Posted: Sun, May 13 2012, 11:50 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

Listen to Rebbetzin Jungreis speak about therapy shmerapy. Listen to how she does not tolerate any disrespect whatsoever from children.
She says children have to have respect for parents because HASHEM said so.
Not because its the right thing to do, according to what we do for them.
Its because the Torah demands it!

Ignoring the facts have lead you no where.
Your daughter has not improved.
Time to find another approach.

That is a horrible thing that your daughter did to you. Outweighs the pony pulling!
Of course two wrongs don't ever make a right, but this shows that both of you need much more than you have been getting. There is no relationship. She probably has a million things to apologize for, but that is not the point. This relationship has to begin at point A. There is a long way to go. Apologizing is only one little thing. Where is the real relationship? Where is her love for you? Her appreciation for you? Etc.

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She sounds like she might be an unattached child. I recommend reading Dr. Aron Lederer's book, "Taming the Wild Child." You can get some basic info on his site RADconsultancy.com

Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 2:40 am Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

I don't understand why she needs a semi-public apology like that - it sounds like just reinforcing the common teenage idea (which is at its absolute extreme in her case) that they are perfect and any problems they have are because of their parents (or other adults like teachers). Instead of her taking responsibility for her own actions, this just fuels the fire that she doesn't have to take responsibility for her own actions.

I would say something (just to her) like, 'I'm sorry you have some bad memories. You know, parents are human too and sometimes make mistakes, just like you make mistakes and everyone else human does too. Iy"H when you are a mother you will see you won't be perfect either."
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Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 2:42 am Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

I didn't read this whole thing through, but I do know some things about all teens:

they'll all complain that you messed up their lives - and you know what? it's somewhat true! because H' didn't make parents perfect and we all make some mistakes, some of them bigger than others - but that's all part of the Plan.

Part of my own growing up with my teens was accepting that yes, I am constituting part of their life peckele. *sigh*

yes apologize for your mistakes - even if it was 10 years ago - but only once and then move on. Refuse to grovel.
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Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 3:34 am Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

Hi. I just wanted to mention one thing to the OP... I'm so sorry you are going through this!

It sounds like your daughter might have some kind of mental illness - is she seeing a therapist or a psychiatrist? If this is the case, and I'm not a doctor myself, so I don't want to presume something that isn't true... This isn't the kind of thing that the "correct" parenting technique can fix, nor is there a "proper" way of dealing with these situations.

What I do have experience in that can help: I watched my friend's parents go through a similar thing with their young son. They really were the perfect parents, and there were times that their son was the perfect son... but as he got older, ordinary behavior problems kept getting worse and worse. The manipulation was the key sign, constant manipulation, no matter the situation. He was eventually diagnosed as bi-polar, but more often than not he refuses to take his meds. Their son is now grown and unfortunately there hasn't been any change in his behavior. Ocassionally he hits them up for money, and most often they decline, simply because they can't afford it. There is usually a song-and-dance drama that the son uses to bilk them out of more cash, but Thank G-d they are in a place where they only give if they can, regardless of the drama.

In addition to the psychiatrists, they did consult their Rav, who knew the family very well and who had great respect for them. The Rabbi helped them lay out a plan of what their reactions should be, in the most terrible circumstances, and what support they should (and should not) provide their son. This was after a diagnosis, and in conjunction with the medical doctors. The purpose of the Rav's advice was not to create some master plan that would fix their son - but rather to give the parent's the security and assurance to know that they had in fact done everything they possibly could in this situation.

If this relates to your story, I hope it can help give you strength. If it doesn't - my apologies for assuming.

Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 10:06 am Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

I may be totally off, but what if you put her to test by apologizing, and see if things improve?
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How old is your dd?
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Posted: Mon, May 14 2012, 12:28 pm Post subject: re: DD says we mistreated her

BE VERY CAREFUL. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING THAT COULD BE TAPED AND USED AGAINST YOU.

Your heartbreaking story sounds just like mine. My DS is now over 30 and just recently was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. He always had it in for me and I could do nothing right. He wanted my husband to divorce me and said this out in the open very often.

When we was 6, he was diagnosed with adhd. In the coming years we heard these diagnoses: oppositional defiant disorder, pervasive developmental disorder, bipolar, ocd. A few months ago, a psychiatrist told us that he was not bipolar but borderline. I knew nothing about this disorder but have since educated myself. It now all makes sense.

When he was 17, we were at the end of our rope and had to make other living arrangements for him. He refused to go to an OOT Yeshiva that was willing to take him. He also refused to go live temporarily at his rebbe's house (they were willing to take him for a few weeks to give us respite.) We had no choice but to place him in a Jewish residence for teenage boys where he then continued to break every rule there and terrorize the director of the residence. He would tell me to get down on my knees and apologize to him for abusing him.

Fast forward. He is now living on his own and has calmed down a lot. We have a pretty good relationship now, but he almost killed me & my husband. He also came very close to destroying our marriage.

Dear OP, are there other living arrangements you can make? If so, it will save your lives. I really hope that you get some relief soon.

Please keep us posted.