Do modern-day rabanim also have crediblity?

yes, they're not of the same caliber as the tanna'im of old, yet those self-same tanna'im taught that you shall listen to the judge of your own times, just as you listened to moshe and yehoshua. I was also taught that any rav who is asked a real shaila (as opposed to a "what-if" situation) has siyata dishamya to answer it properly. can he make a mistake? of course he isn't infallible and yes, you may "miss the mark" according to his psak, but like any other mistake in life, if you did what you did in good faith, then that's the best decision under the circumstances. It can be compared to a surgeon who operated in good faith and his best skill, but the patient died. so you won't go to doctors anymore???

btw, both in science as well as in Torah - if nobody sees it, it didn't happen.
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Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional. (I haven't finished growing up yet; I'm still a work in progress - until 120!)

Grin I understand where you are coming from but it's a lot more complicated than that.
To be a rabbi/teacher/leader during many periods in Jewish history, for one during the time of the tanoim and Amoraim, was very different than today. Certainly there may have been those who had "knowledge" then, but it didn't pass the test of time and therefore they aren't included in the canon that we have now, meaning their de'os aren't even mentioned in the mishna or Talmud. They were marginal even if, at the time they lived, they were "connected" and people knew who they were (think: public relations of those days).

But they weren't sages one should have listened to and didn't pass the test of time and therefore we don't even know their names.

OR...when the mishna and Talmud were codified, they may have been great in their day but they were from the "wrong camp" and as the winners write the history of the losers...we don't know their names as they were in the losing camp (whatever the definition of that would be and I don't just mean halochic, I mean "political", "economic" or whatever).

Today we have a problem and that is that we are living "today". And we can see the fights between the "winners" and the "losers". Maybe it's easier for someone chassidic. She has her rebbe and that's that. But even in chassidic dynasties today we see so many of them, unfortunately, that are being wrenched and torn apart by internal schisms. Who is the "real" rebbe? The rebbe's son or nephew? Or someone else? Who should one follow? Get the picture?

And when not speaking about chassidus and dynasties and succession...then who to follow? So in Modern orthodoxy for example, to which I belong, there are these kind of rabbonim and that kind of rabbonim, each with their own derekh. However as they haven't passed the test of time and I can also see in many cases what is "making them tick", it gets worrysome. Is EVERYTHING they say really, totally and actually "lishem shomayim" or is it only THEIR definition of "leshem shomayim"? And what about my own sechel, do I just put that to bed and follow blindly when rabbonim get involved in political decisions, particularly here in EY where so much is politicized?

See what I mean.

That's why I said "it's complicated". There are so many factors other than just plain "Torah" (or at least what my circles consider "Torah") that get involved.
And as I'm living NOW and I see what is going on NOW, it's hard for me to blindly follow or to say that ALL rabbonim of this period have credibility.

Some definiteliy do. Some are such zaddikim that it's hard to find someone who will say different. But not all rabbonim are like that.

So to answer your question: do modern-day rabbonim also have credibility? Certainly, but not all of them unfortunately.
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"Olam Chessed Yiboneh", Tehilim 89.

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 04 2008 Posts: 8180

I think FS has a good point. By definition, we can't know if something has stood the test of time until time has passed. We don't know if a book published last year will still be read 100 years from now. It's the same in every age. People judge historical characters through the prism of time. We have a lot less perspective when it comes to our contemporaries.
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But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you
And loved the sorrows of your changing face.

I was just thinking about things last night, being that someone brought up lag b'omer and Rabbi Akiva.

If the talmidim of Rabbi Akiva perished and there were only 5 students left (or he got five new students), does this mean that our Oral Torah was passed down through only 5 talmidim?

Well, I'm chassidish, and I have a problem just blindly following what a rebbe says. Unfortunately, I (and several other ppl I know) were badly hurt when a rebbe gave very bad advice/mishandled a difficult situation. And yet, plenty of ppl don't know about what this rebbe did and continue to blindly follow him, accepting his every word as toras moshe. Believe me, it really worries me- how many more ppl will be messed up by this rebbe?! (we're talking serious damage in serious issues that was mishandled.)
And in all those chassidus where there is so much fighting- is that what it means to be a rebbe? shouldn't a rebbe be above all of that?! and are any of these modern day rebbes so heilige that they really can give brochos, have ruach hakodesh etc?
I really wonder.....

Chani there are those who claim that they didn't die of a "plague" but that the term was used to actually mean that they were in battle at the time of the Bar Cochba revolt and that they died in battle and the battle ended then. Had there been such a plague with so many tens of thousands of victims it would have probably appeared in other non Jewish sources (remember the Romans) who were here and would have been afraid to be tainted with the same plague. Who knows. And was it really only five who survived? And was Rabbi Akiva the only teacher of the time? Maybe the numbers are like the "shishim Ribo" which have a tendency to repeat itself meaning not a particular exact number but "a heck of a lot of people"...as it may have been used then (a catchword).

None of this has anything to do with not believing in Torah and not practicing torah true judaism. This is what we've got, this is what we keep. But as for accepting every "godol" blindly today...it's a bit more complicated.

Which is how we have such a veritable wealth of discussions and opinions from after R. Akiva's time as well, just because there were many others. Unfortunately though some of the questions that we ask about modern day rabbonim...well one can assume from reading between the lines of discussions in the Talmud, that some of those questions came up at that time as well. But we have the benefit of knowing what stood the test of time from then, which is basically what we keep.

Rabbonim today are a problem, because of some of the very broad, wilful, and "certain" pronouncements that certain of them have made about topics that appear to some to be far away from what rabbonim of their stature should be dealing with. Politics for one. Personal economics. Covering up horrors in their kehilla and giving religious support to wealthy corrupt Jews who are basically bankrolling their rabbinical court (and I don't mean the legal one but rather a loose translation of "chatzer", the bureaucracy surrounding a certain rabbi).

And when that happens that gets many of us to ask questions. Would R. Akiva have covered up for a child molester who was being accused? Would R. Elazar Ben Azariah have supported a person known for embezzlement? Would R. Yehuda Hanasi have covered up for a man who was making his wife an aguna, trying to milk her and her family financially to "buy" her get?

Yes those are the kind of issues that make people wonder about some of today's rabbonim. Not just proclamations about this length of sheitl or this kind of dress.

One of my cousins had a single 27 year old daughter, much to her distress. She got a call from someone that there was a Rebbe in from Israel who was giving brachas and to come right over for one. Oh and bring a check with you for $1000.....

Sorry, that doesn't scream 'gadol' in my book, nor do I think there's any ruach hakodesh going on. Rebbeim are very learned PEOPLE, not angels, not heavenly creatures. Someone like Rav Soloveitchik or Rav Moshe I hold in the highest esteem, and would view as being more spiritual than any of us could hope to be, and closer to God then I can possibly imagine being, but not in a literal sense!

Diamond Member Joined: Jan 14 2011 Posts: 2818

when it comes to being posek on a halachic question, it makes sense to me to go to a modern day rav, who is learned and well versed specifically in halachic questions. but it seems there is more to the question here than whether or not they have credibility in halacha.

we have always learned that in the times of moshiach, we will have no one to rely on but Hashem. maybe we learned this wrong, maybe the times of moshiach will come when we stop putting our faith in anyone but Hashem. and when we recognize that a rabbi is to help us navigate the intricacies of halacha, a rabbi is not someone you put your faith into. so in answer to the original question, I think you can rely on a competent rav well versed in torah learning to answer your halachic shailos, and get some inspiration, a good dvar torah, etc. but your faith in your rav should not be limitless. a rebbe should never replace Hashem, or your own common sense.

Diamond Member Joined: Sep 16 2007 Posts: 4185

Platinum Member Joined: Mar 12 2009 Posts: 13338

A real mekubal will not ask money (he may even refuse or be offended) but he may accept money for the poor and even say it's a segula (read Holy woman).

I'm an "inspirating story that can't be true" case. Got a bracha from Rebbetzin Jungreis and had Moyshele 9 months after. So now, I look at stories like this with fresh eyes indeed...
But I was told by rebbetzin Halpern (Novardok) that anyone can bless others or himself and reach the level of a tzadik, I didn't need her bracha. Her almost 100 year old husband the rebbe said I just needed to feel good and not worry.
I insisted so I got it anyway Twisted Evil

I feel often the "worth it" people are not in the public eye so we don't really hear of them. The rebbetzin Kramer (Holy woman) didn't want her book published while she was alive... or they are surrounded by parasites who prevent the people to have access and/or ask money, which is a real turn off... Sad

I'm VERY into brachos, I'm heimish like that Laughing

I recently read a story about the Gra that shed new light on this subject - although he was an incredible talmid chacham, he wasn't the rav of his city. He bowed to the psak of the city's rav, although he was far superior to him in Torah knowledge, and even if he was aware that the other rav had erred - because that's how Torah works.

I'm anon to protect my identity.
If the q's is if Rabbonim nowaday's have some "connection" that we don't then I think the ansewer is that regular Rabbonim are not always the same as Gedolim.
But there are definetly Gedolim who have some sort of connection.
A short while back a person very close to me was admittted into the hospital abd then diagnoed with an icredibly rare sickness from which the vast majority do not fully recover.
I say diagnosed even though it's not really the proper term since the medical world admits to not fully being able to realize what this sickness is.
When this person was admitted he was told that it was impossible that he would fully recover. Period.
In addition the DR's in the begining were frantically running numerous tests 24/7 since there were certain complications that prevented them from treating the root cause of the sickness and they admitted to not having time on their side.
Yet several Gedolei Yisroel were approached and they all said that no one should worry everything would be fine.
One of the Gedolim in fact was asked "But, How can you say that the Dr's don't even know what is really going on?
The Godol in question replied.
So what? They won't know where it came from and they won't know where it goes.
Just a few days later this person began to walk again and in fact is now virtually fully recuperated.
In fact regarding a certain problem in which the person had not fully recuperated the lead Dr. (a non-jew) on the case (these were all prominent Dr's in a top MAnhattan Hospital) told this person that he sees know reason that that there should be any lasting effect since medinice was defined in the person walking there is no reason the recovery process should stop now.
A irreligous specialist called in to the case actually admitted to the patient that "when you were admitted I was extremley pessimistic but you had more faith in the Rabbis in Isreal then me and it seems they were right"
So for me (I was intimatley involved in the case) the question whether or not Rabbonim have some sort of connection with G-d that I don't is kinda obvious.