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| TranquilityAndPeace |
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 Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:18 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| amother wrote: |
OP here. I accept chumrot in shabat because it makes perfect sense to me. Tznius makes sense to me as well, just not in the way you are describing it. I have to be modest. I can do that wearing pants and no wig |
Amother, you seem to have a very logical personality, where everything must be orderly and make sense. (One of my kids has this personality - we have no idea where he got it from!)
So, you're searching for the logic and sense in various mitzvos, and drawing your own conclusions. You're playing God. And you're doing it in a way that is uncommon. (That's why you can't find a community of people who think the way you do.)
This is a great book about playing God. I believe it will help you a tremendous amount: If You Were God - by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan
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| Banana |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:19 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| chani8 wrote: | | amother wrote: | | chani8 wrote: | We understand that we are meant to cover our hair from a few places. One is in the Torah where the woman uncovered her hair to keep Korachs men from approaching her tent, and we learn from that, that men are not to see another man's wife's hair.
Then we learn it also from Sotah, that a woman who is proved to being unfaithful will have her hair uncovered as part of her grave punishment, which means that a faithful wife will cover her hair.
This still leaves a whole lot of room for how you cover your hair, imo. (FTR, being previously charedi, I just cannot even show a tefach.) I don't know how you could go from FFB charedi to uncovering your hair in public. I think it isn't healthy to make such a jump. And you should have a therapist to help you strengthen yourself if you really want to keep your sanity when you leave your closed insular community. There is likely to be lots of fear and guilt and confusion, not to mention anger and bitterness. Just take it slowly. Start by wearing a bandana, and maybe you'll find that is enough of a change. And try wearing a short skirt over your pants, until you feel more certain. Just my thoughts.
Oh wait, you asked about why skirts. The issur is to cover your private parts, and this was meant that even the outline of our tush and crotch area be masked, which form fitting pants just don't do. That is why loose pants, aladin pants, are permitted.
Some think that the issur was against wearing men's clothing, but that isn't a problem since pants are also made for women. |
I really don't buy that. In the olden days, ANY woman, whether jewish or christian or whatever was considered immodest if she uncovered her hair. ALL women covered their hair in public. |
What do you mean, you don't buy that?? That is where it comes from. Period. If you don't think it is applicable to today, that is a different story. You are entitled to say, today most women don't cover their hair, so I don't think it is an issue. And check out the conservative movement, where it is no problem to hold this way. They keep Shabbat and Kosher, too, in case you don't believe that due to your charedi mentality that being 'so careful with kashrut that you don't eat by your friends'. |
Wow, calm down please. No need for sarcasm. I don't believe it's applicable to today. There, happier now?
There is no need to mock me and tell me to go join conservative people. That's just mean.
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| Banana |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:23 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| TranquilityAndPeace wrote: | | amother wrote: |
OP here. I accept chumrot in shabat because it makes perfect sense to me. Tznius makes sense to me as well, just not in the way you are describing it. I have to be modest. I can do that wearing pants and no wig |
Amother, you seem to have a very logical personality, where everything must be orderly and make sense. (One of my kids has this personality - we have no idea where he got it from!)
So, you're searching for the logic and sense in various mitzvos, and drawing your own conclusions. You're playing God. And you're doing it in a way that is uncommon. (That's why you can't find a community of people who think the way you do.)
This is a great book about playing God. I believe it will help you a tremendous amount: If You Were God - by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan |
That made me laugh. I'm actually quite emotional and do many things davka even if it doesn't make sense because that's what I truly FEEL.
I'm not playing god, I do many many things that I don't understand because the Torah says so. I will still be modest just like Hashem commanded.
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| Geulanow |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:33 am Post subject: re: Confused |
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Uncovered hair is considered erva. Jewish women are are the King's daughter-would you go in front of a King wearing pants? Tznius is jut one aspect of how a Jew is supposed to be holy.
Just because someone wears a skirt or covers her hair does mean that the person does not have a yetzer hara. The bais hamikdosh has not yet been rebuilt so we are still suffering from the sinas chinam which caused the destruction of the first bais hamikdosh, so if you a Jew dressed modestly but not showing ahavas Yisrael, it could be because we still have a strong pull to do that aveira. Is there any rav or rebbetzin whom you trust who you can speak with?
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| tovli toraspicha |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:34 am Post subject: re: Confused |
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So what exactly is your question? Is it what people will think of you if you walk around without a hair covering and wearing pants?
I would assume that everyone will think something different based on their own personal experiences in life and where they come from.
For example, what would you have thought when you were sheltered and living in brooklyn if you saw a lady walking down the street without a hair covering and wearing pants? You may think nothing, but you probably wouldn't have assumed off the bat that she was a religious Jew, would you?
Someone who grew up in a community where there were shomer shabbos people who didn't cover their hair may have thought I wonder if that person is Jewish, oh look, she's wearing a magen david necklace, maybe she's frum, I'll go over and say hello...
If you're asking whether you can pick and choose what you think is considered a halacha/mitzva, and only follow those ones that "make sense" to you, you can obviously do whatever you want, but that is certainly not a normative religious Jewish Orthodox position. If you have an Orthodox Rav who is well versed in halalcha and a posek, who paskins that certain modes of dress are okay according to his understanding, and you follow him in other matters of halacha as well, then that is a different story.
I'm sure there are many people who engage in activities that they know are against halacha, for many different reasons. When those activities are done in private, it is different than when they are public, only because one we know about and the other we do not. So if someone is mechalel shabbos in public, there are certain restrictions that apply to him, while obviously if someone is secretly being mechalel shabbos, nobody knows about it, and yes, he can get away with it "scot free" from our perspective, but that is up to Hashem to take care of him...
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| Banana |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:47 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Geulanow wrote: | Uncovered hair is considered erva. Jewish women are are the King's daughter-would you go in front of a King wearing pants? Tznius is jut one aspect of how a Jew is supposed to be holy.
Just because someone wears a skirt or covers her hair does mean that the person does not have a yetzer hara. The bais hamikdosh has not yet been rebuilt so we are still suffering from the sinas chinam which caused the destruction of the first bais hamikdosh, so if you a Jew dressed modestly but not showing ahavas Yisrael, it could be because we still have a strong pull to do that aveira. Is there any rav or rebbetzin whom you trust who you can speak with? |
But who said that your definition of tznius is correct? Barbra said that she wears pants and uncovers her hair. Does that mean you think moshiach will not come because of her?
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| shabbatiscoming |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:50 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Geulanow wrote: | Uncovered hair is considered erva. Jewish women are are the King's daughter-would you go in front of a King wearing pants? Tznius is jut one aspect of how a Jew is supposed to be holy.
Just because someone wears a skirt or covers her hair does mean that the person does not have a yetzer hara. The bais hamikdosh has not yet been rebuilt so we are still suffering from the sinas chinam which caused the destruction of the first bais hamikdosh, so if you a Jew dressed modestly but not showing ahavas Yisrael, it could be because we still have a strong pull to do that aveira. Is there any rav or rebbetzin whom you trust who you can speak with? | I am sure that there are many women out there that very much would wear pants in front of a king, a nice business suit or something like that, not ripped jeans.
And there are some rabbanim that do not agree that hair has to be covered or that pants are wrong. That is one way of looking at the laws. There are 70 ways of interpreting the torah. please remember that.
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| Barbara |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:56 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Geulanow wrote: | Uncovered hair is considered erva. Jewish women are are the King's daughter-would you go in front of a King wearing pants? Tznius is jut one aspect of how a Jew is supposed to be holy.
Just because someone wears a skirt or covers her hair does mean that the person does not have a yetzer hara. The bais hamikdosh has not yet been rebuilt so we are still suffering from the sinas chinam which caused the destruction of the first bais hamikdosh, so if you a Jew dressed modestly but not showing ahavas Yisrael, it could be because we still have a strong pull to do that aveira. Is there any rav or rebbetzin whom you trust who you can speak with? |
IOW, I would certainly appear before a King or Queen wearing appropriate pants.
Next argument?
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| Barbara |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:58 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Banana wrote: | | Geulanow wrote: | Uncovered hair is considered erva. Jewish women are are the King's daughter-would you go in front of a King wearing pants? Tznius is jut one aspect of how a Jew is supposed to be holy.
Just because someone wears a skirt or covers her hair does mean that the person does not have a yetzer hara. The bais hamikdosh has not yet been rebuilt so we are still suffering from the sinas chinam which caused the destruction of the first bais hamikdosh, so if you a Jew dressed modestly but not showing ahavas Yisrael, it could be because we still have a strong pull to do that aveira. Is there any rav or rebbetzin whom you trust who you can speak with? |
But who said that your definition of tznius is correct? Barbra said that she wears pants and uncovers her hair. Does that mean you think moshiach will not come because of her? |
Indeed, it is unquestionably SOLELY because of the way that I dress that the moshiach isn't coming.
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| Raisin |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 10:59 am Post subject: re: Confused |
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you sound like you would fit in well in an oot town community. it's quite common to find women who do not cover hair and wear pants but are strict about other halachos. In big cities people tend to split into different groups (sheital wearers, suede kippos, etc)
Hatzlacha on your journey, and I hope you find fulfillment whatever you do.
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| Banana |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:04 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Raisin wrote: | you sound like you would fit in well in an oot town community. it's quite common to find women who do not cover hair and wear pants but are strict about other halachos. In big cities people tend to split into different groups (sheital wearers, suede kippos, etc)
Hatzlacha on your journey, and I hope you find fulfillment whatever you do. |
Thanks! Any community you can reccomend?!
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| Banana |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:06 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Barbara wrote: | | Banana wrote: | | Geulanow wrote: | Uncovered hair is considered erva. Jewish women are are the King's daughter-would you go in front of a King wearing pants? Tznius is jut one aspect of how a Jew is supposed to be holy.
Just because someone wears a skirt or covers her hair does mean that the person does not have a yetzer hara. The bais hamikdosh has not yet been rebuilt so we are still suffering from the sinas chinam which caused the destruction of the first bais hamikdosh, so if you a Jew dressed modestly but not showing ahavas Yisrael, it could be because we still have a strong pull to do that aveira. Is there any rav or rebbetzin whom you trust who you can speak with? |
But who said that your definition of tznius is correct? Barbra said that she wears pants and uncovers her hair. Does that mean you think moshiach will not come because of her? |
Indeed, it is unquestionably SOLELY because of the way that I dress that the moshiach isn't coming. |
Hahahaha, obviously!
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| chani8 |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:06 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Banana wrote: | | Wow, calm down please. No need for sarcasm. I don't believe it's applicable to today. There, happier now?There is no need to mock me and tell me to go join conservative people. That's just mean. |
I don't get you at all. I am not mocking you, I'm challenging you. Please take my posts as thought provocing, not meant to be insulting.
I can't help but point out to you, that lumping your frum community into one big group of hypocrits, is making a very gross generalization. I'm guessing that there are many in your frum world who are not hypocrits. Accepting chumrot on kashrut and shabbos but not on tznius seems itself a bit hypocritical.
Stating that you think I was insulting you and being mean by suggesting you 'join the conservative people', really surprised me. Conservatives think that there is no need to cover hair at all, 'these days'. The LW MO who don't cover their hair are close in hashkafa to RW Conservative Jewry. They all keep kosher and shabbat, like you, minus the chumras. Why did you take that offensively? You asked where you might fit in, earlier I presented MO options, and now you take offense at my conservative suggestion???
I hope you will find solutions to your questions that will bring you clarity, guidance, and peace.
Shabbat Shalom!
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| Raisin |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:10 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Banana wrote: | | Raisin wrote: | you sound like you would fit in well in an oot town community. it's quite common to find women who do not cover hair and wear pants but are strict about other halachos. In big cities people tend to split into different groups (sheital wearers, suede kippos, etc)
Hatzlacha on your journey, and I hope you find fulfillment whatever you do. |
Thanks! Any community you can reccomend?! |
I don't live in the USA so I don't really know the communities there. But I am sure there are many posters on here who could help you.
Also, OOT people know you well and don't judge you by your appearance.
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| chani8 |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:13 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| Banana wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | Banana wrote: | | Geulanow wrote: | Uncovered hair is considered erva. Jewish women are are the King's daughter-would you go in front of a King wearing pants? Tznius is jut one aspect of how a Jew is supposed to be holy.
Just because someone wears a skirt or covers her hair does mean that the person does not have a yetzer hara. The bais hamikdosh has not yet been rebuilt so we are still suffering from the sinas chinam which caused the destruction of the first bais hamikdosh, so if you a Jew dressed modestly but not showing ahavas Yisrael, it could be because we still have a strong pull to do that aveira. Is there any rav or rebbetzin whom you trust who you can speak with? |
But who said that your definition of tznius is correct? Barbra said that she wears pants and uncovers her hair. Does that mean you think moshiach will not come because of her? |
Indeed, it is unquestionably SOLELY because of the way that I dress that the moshiach isn't coming. |
Hahahaha, obviously! |
Her posting wasn't clear, but I think she was trying to answer both of OP's questions, of where tznius comes from, and why she sees hypocrisy in her frum community.
She explained that tznius comes from the concept of Erva, found in Brachos.
She is saying that the BH was not rebuilt because of sinas chinam (not because of a lack of tznius). She was saying that even those who dress modestly can have a yetzer hara for sinas chinam.
And she is suggesting OP find someone to talk to.
Now, I better get ready for shabbat!
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| Banana |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:13 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| chani8 wrote: | | Banana wrote: | | Wow, calm down please. No need for sarcasm. I don't believe it's applicable to today. There, happier now?There is no need to mock me and tell me to go join conservative people. That's just mean. |
I don't get you at all. I am not mocking you, I'm challenging you. Please take my posts as thought provocing, not meant to be insulting.
I can't help but point out to you, that lumping your frum community into one big group of hypocrits, is making a very gross generalization. I'm guessing that there are many in your frum world who are not hypocrits. Accepting chumrot on kashrut and shabbos but not on tznius seems itself a bit hypocritical.
Stating that you think I was insulting you and being mean by suggesting you 'join the conservative people', really surprised me. Conservatives think that there is no need to cover hair at all, 'these days'. The LW MO who don't cover their hair are close in hashkafa to RW Conservative Jewry. They all keep kosher and shabbat, like you, minus the chumras. Why did you take that offensively? You asked where you might fit in, earlier I presented MO options, and now you take offense at my conservative suggestion???
I hope you will find solutions to your questions that will bring you clarity, guidance, and peace.
Shabbat Shalom! |
Sorry, I guess I took it the wrong way because I am Orthodox and to be labeled as not just because I want to change one thing that doesn't make any sense to me seems ridiculous. The message I'm getting is that it's what on the outside that's most important. That doesn't seem very religious to me at all.
Also, I am not lumping the frum community as all hypocrites. Unfortunately this attitude of how you dress defining how good a jew you are is nuts. I am positive that is not what Hashem intended when he gave us the torah.
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| Banana |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:18 am Post subject: re: Confused |
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| Let me just clarify again, I am not saying to go and dress like a prostitute, you can be a modest lady and still wear pants and uncover your hair. Hashem asks us to be modest, no? HE doesn't want us attracting men and HE wants us to be like princesses, right? I can do that with pants and no sheital very easily.
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| Tzippora |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:35 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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The LW MO who don't cover their hair are close in hashkafa to RW Conservative Jewry.
...thanks. Much appreciated.
I'm even more positive that my dress is keeping moshiach from coming. Didn't you know, those dirty ladies in their pantsuits and shift dresses are destroying the world!!!
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| amother |
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 11:47 am Post subject: re: Confused |
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OP- I wear pants and don't cover my hair! 
Seeing as I am the audience you seemed to be directing your question to - I figured I'd chime in and answer your original questions.
| Quote: | | "Anyways, after much thought I have decided I want to uncover my hair and wear pants. For all those imamother members who do that, what community are you part of? Where do you belong? Why do you dress the way you do?" |
I'd rather not share what exact community I am part of - but I do live in the NY/NJ area, I.e., not OOT. I feel very comfortable with my decision to dress like this because I do believe that I am acting within the realm of halacha. Also, as I grew up MO, while many of my young MO married friends have decided to cover, I'd say 90% of my friends' mothers do not --- it was just not as common in the MO world in the generation before mine.
Before I was married I wore only skirts - but the decision to not cover my hair and to wear pants was a decision my DH and I came to together - a compromise we were both comfortable with.
I will be honest though - some of my immediate family is Yeshivish, too (I grew up MO but some have become more RW) - and I must admit I get frustrated when they assume I don't know as much about a halacha regarding shabbos/kashrut etc. because they see me as more LW. People don't know how to deal with someone who is seemingly contradictory - I.e., machmir and knowledgeable in some aspects, seemingly more lenient in other aspects. It's human nature - especially in orthodox Judaism and especially when you live "in-town." People like to classify both themselves and others --- it's how our brains work and how we create bonds with like-minded people --- and the easiest way to do that is by your first impression.
On a similar note, I meet people who wear pants/don't cover their hair who automatically assume that I eat parve/dairy out (I don't!) or that I don't keep TH (I do!).
My point is, while you're looking for a community where you'll feel comfortable, you won't change the reality of the Orthodox world. Do what you believe is right and what you feel comfortable with -- it's human nature to judge based on first impressions - especially when you've always been taught one way is the correct way to be.
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| Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: re: Confused |
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| amother wrote: | OP- I wear pants and don't cover my hair!
Seeing as I am the audience you seemed to be directing your question to - I figured I'd chime in and answer your original questions.
| Quote: | | "Anyways, after much thought I have decided I want to uncover my hair and wear pants. For all those imamother members who do that, what community are you part of? Where do you belong? Why do you dress the way you do?" |
I'd rather not share what exact community I am part of - but I do live in the NY/NJ area, I.e., not OOT. I feel very comfortable with my decision to dress like this because I do believe that I am acting within the realm of halacha. Also, as I grew up MO, while many of my young MO married friends have decided to cover, I'd say 90% of my friends' mothers do not --- it was just not as common in the MO world in the generation before mine.
Before I was married I wore only skirts - but the decision to not cover my hair and to wear pants was a decision my DH and I came to together - a compromise we were both comfortable with.
I will be honest though - some of my immediate family is Yeshivish, too (I grew up MO but some have become more RW) - and I must admit I get frustrated when they assume I don't know as much about a halacha regarding shabbos/kashrut etc. because they see me as more LW. People don't know how to deal with someone who is seemingly contradictory - I.e., machmir and knowledgeable in some aspects, seemingly more lenient in other aspects. It's human nature - especially in orthodox Judaism and especially when you live "in-town." People like to classify both themselves and others --- it's how our brains work and how we create bonds with like-minded people --- and the easiest way to do that is by your first impression.
On a similar note, I meet people who wear pants/don't cover their hair who automatically assume that I eat parve/dairy out (I don't!) or that I don't keep TH (I do!).
My point is, while you're looking for a community where you'll feel comfortable, you won't change the reality of the Orthodox world. Do what you believe is right and what you feel comfortable with -- it's human nature to judge based on first impressions - especially when you've always been taught one way is the correct way to be. |
I know you don't want to reveal where you live but can you tell me approximately where? I really want to move but I need to stay in this area.
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