Confused

Posted: Thu, Apr 19 2012, 9:52 pm Post subject: Confused

First, a little background. I grew up kind of yeshivish and sheltered, always really believed in what I was doing although hating all the fakeness and emphasis on the wrong things that go on in the jewish community. After high school I married a more modern guy and started dressing differently (skirts not exactly covering my knees, taking hair out of sheital...).

That's all I changed about myself regarding Judaism, I still act the way I acted before regarding mitzvos but I believe that a lot of these rules regarding tznius are nuts.

I was born and raised in Brooklyn and the insane amount of fakeness I see is disgusting. All my life I see people dressed as such modest, frum jews act towards others in the most repulsive way possible and I can just vomit. That's not what we're about.

Anyways, after much thought I have decided I want to uncover my hair and wear pants. For all those imamother members who do that, what community are you part of? Where do you belong? Why do you dress the way you do?

It bothers me to no end that the way a person dresses defines them as MO or not when my actions and mitzvos are way above the many "yeshivish" jews I know but I will be judged solely by how I dress.

Thanks for helping

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 04 2008 Posts: 7944

But yeshivish isn't higher or better than MO when it comes to mitzvot or frumkeit. It's a particular hashkafa expressed in approaches to education, career choices, interaction with the secular world, Zionism, mixed-gender friendship, entertainment choices, etc, etc. How you dress is such a small part of the overall picture.
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Platinum Member Joined: May 06 2007 Posts: 8518

How does uncovering your hair and wearing pants help you? I see that you're upset with what you see, but it's an immature way to show your distaste.
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Executive Member Joined: Jan 30 2008 Posts: 250

I dont get how uncovering your hair and wearing pants is supposed to make you a better person.
if you want to be MO in shitta, you can do that and still cover and wear skirts.
I think your biggest problem is that you are living in the wrong community for you.
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Silver Member Joined: Dec 17 2011 Posts: 594

Okay, let me get this straight. It bothers you when you see people who are careful with the mitzva of tznius doing aveiros, so your reaction is to choose a different aviera for yourself? Why does that make you feel better?

Diamond Member Joined: Jan 24 2010 Posts: 3400

My husband, and I are on the road back to Judaism. I don't cover my hair, and I wear pants. I consider myself a religious Jew, but haven't exactly found my sect. We are moving from a community that doesn't fit that mold to a community where there are various sects of Judaism living together in harmony, which I think is a beautiful thing. I have worn pants since I was a teenager, and hardly ever covered my hair as a married woman. Will I ever limit myself to wearing only skirts, and cover my hair? It's hard to answer such a question. I'm not "there" yet, and right now, it's not a priority. Do you currently wear pants, and have your hair uncovered? Do you have kids who are old enough to notice this change? Will doing these things help you figure out what you want out of life, and this religion? I hope these questions don't sound judgmental or offend you. I'm just trying to gain a better understanding.

Gold Member Joined: Mar 04 2008 Posts: 1605

Platinum Member Joined: Apr 12 2010 Posts: 5799

Perhaps you are in the wrong community or area for your type?

Pants and uncovering hair is not always the answer. Its not about tznius its about your privacy/personal space.
It makes me sick too to see how fake some people are (especially in my area in NY) but the not frum people or the non jews with pants and hair are not always much better.
You can dress elegantly, nicely and stylish but still be tznius.

In my opinon tznius is not only about covering knees, hair, elbows etc. It is about going your way, dressing the way you do without being a walking attraction, without 'lending yourself to the mind' (ie barely any clothes to cover what little you dont want to be seen leaving people little room to see you in any other way than a hooker).

I personally do not dress like the community I am in. Yes sometimes I do feel the pressure, and I feel that some things I own are not me at all but I wear them to 'fit in' but on the whole, I dress for who I am. I wear what I feel is right for the reasons I believe.
It may not be easy but try do that. Don't think about anyone else. Think about you. Think about what you feel comfortable wearing, what you like and you think covers you enough so as not to feel embarrassed when you walk in the street (not in front of jewish people, in manhattan, in front of anyone!).

(I hope this makes sense. It is a hard topic, tznius, especially in todays world when so many people are just doing it because but they have no idea as to why what or how.)
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Platinum Member Joined: Nov 04 2008 Posts: 7944

Ask yourself some questions:
Who am I?
What do I believe?
How do I view the land and the state of Israel?
How do we incorporate secular learning into our lives, if at all?
How do we strive to be better Jews and better people?

Answering these questions will help you figure out what overall group you want to be a part of.

Clothes are secondary.

Also, in terms of dress, it's not a huge, forever, either-or decision. You can wear skirts 364 days a year.

Posted: Thu, Apr 19 2012, 11:04 pm Post subject: re: Confused

OP here. Thanks for all the responses. To clarify myself, I don't want to wear pants and uncover my hair because of fakeness. Not at all. I just don't believe that it's necessary.

Posted: Thu, Apr 19 2012, 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: re: Confused

Posted: Thu, Apr 19 2012, 11:45 pm Post subject: re: Confused

What you can do is find out why so many people "do find it necessary" to cover their hair and wear skirts. See the reason behind it. There must be some meaning to it if a lot of people do it. Will you dressing a certain way suddenly make you feel happy and complete? Like others suggested, find a community where there is not too much hypocrocy and you feel good living there. Good luck!
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Active Poster Joined: Mar 26 2012 Posts: 64

Don't have answer for u but totally sympathize with u... Confusion is really painful... Wish u find what feels right to u soon ... G' luck!

Executive Member Joined: Nov 04 2008 Posts: 331

To answer ops question about what do I think when I see a Jewish woman dressed a certain way: 1) if I see a woman wearing a skirt and a head covering, unless she's obviously Muslim or some other group that covers the hair, I assume she's Jewish and furthermore- Shomer shabbos and kashrut. I could b wrong, but usually I'm right (head covering- any style with hair out in front- in back, no hair showing)
If I see a woman that I know to b Jewish dressed in pants, no head covering at all--I will assume very likely not religious unless I know otherwise.
I dunno here where I live, skirts of some kind is a bit of a sign - for others and self as to observance levels. Hair another sign.
Take advice of previous posters. Do research on the whys rtc. It may be unfair but our clothes do broadcast something about ourselves. It might be: on he way to gym: I'm hippy: I'm a kinder teacher and get down on the floor all day: I work in a high- powered environment etc.

Platinum Member Joined: Apr 12 2010 Posts: 5799

I saw this saying on pintrest yesterday and I thought of you op:

"ladies, dress stylish. Leave something up to the imagination. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you can choose the beholder!"

Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 9:06 am Post subject:

Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 9:22 am Post subject: re: Confused

You first need to find the belief system that you agree with and then match yourself to their dress code (which may very well be a dress code of pants and no head covering, but it is a dress code nonetheless).

There are women in my community who are considered feminist MO, and they would wear Alladin type pants, some don tefillin, and wear a headband, small bandana, or short hat, with most of the hair showing.

The regular pants wearers are mesorati, meaning traditional, like conservative lite. They may be shomer shabbat, keep kosher in the home, keep TH, kosher weddings, etc. The DH may or may not wear a kippah, but for sure wears a kippah to shul on shabbat. They often choose charedi rabbonim for their leaders, but don't apply all the rules to themselves.

In my MO mainstream community, the most lenient of the women wear skirts of any length but stretchy pants underneath to cover the knees. They would allow a wide tefach to show of their hair. Necklines mean no cleavage is showing. Alladin pants are permitted but not popular.

That said, what you really wanted to know was shitta of pants wearers. And it is so varied. Do you have specific questions? I would guess a pants wearer would be very lenient on halacha. There would be no pressure in mitzva observance and you would not ever be told what to do.

Have you tried a MO mainstream or OOT community? That sounds like what you need. If you are back east, in NY or NJ, you need to get outta town and see the world. Try Denver, CO for example.

Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 9:24 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused

Posted: Fri, Apr 20 2012, 9:29 am Post subject: Re: re: Confused