Ashkenazim, kitniyos, and kitniyos derivatives (and kids)

Silver Member Joined: Apr 26 2005 Posts: 778

I've discovered something very interesting this Pesach.
We were discussing kitniyot with my Morrocan friends (we are ashkenazi, non-kitnyot family) and they told me that their parents and almost all family members don't eat kitnyot. This is a well known Moroccan minhag and when they got married (the wife is Moroccan, the husband Iraki/Moroccan) they had to do Hatarat Nedarim to be able to eat kitnyot for Pesach.
I always though that non-kitnyot was a ashkenazi minhag.
As far as kids concerned - someone offered my 16 month old a kitnyot snack in the park and I let her have some, but my 7 year old was very makpid on not eating any kitnyot in his friend's house - his best friend is sefardi - and their whole family looked through every single cookie/snack in order to find an kitnyot-free treat for him.

There are certainly non Ashkenazi people who don't eat (all) kitniot. I think Moroccan don't eat rice?
There are also different edot who define kitniot differently. For example there are people who pasken X is kitniot but others who pasken it is not.

Chani, it's all fine to not agree with something. But in the end, we have to either follow halacha (as defined by our shitta), or decide to not follow halacha. If YOUR rav paskens you can have kitniot, well, then there is no need to debate. If he paskens you can't, then on Imamother many or even most posters will tell you that you shouldn't.

It doesn't bother me what people do, but it does bother me to see people not valueing their minhagim (or others').

I can abstain one week in a year to eat at my friends, or if they need me to come during Pessach they can cook without kitniot for me. Who says they'll eat by me anyway, if they're very charedi? There's more to friendship than meals. As I said, I have non Jewish and non frum friends and I just don't eat a meal with them. We go to a kosher restaurant, or they have me for snack, or we do something else than eating. I don't see the problem, but maybe I'm too modern to understand.
_________________

"You will have many many children and make successful shidduchim beh", rebbetzin Esther Jungreis
"It's all cultural, disagree respectfully", me

Ruchel, if a rav is willing to publicly declare that it is ok to eat kitniyot on pesach, then that is good enough for me. After what I've been through, no bitterness intended, I really have little regard for cult like thinking, as in the typical, I do what 'MY Rav" says. I think there is just as much value in people thinking for themselves and having discussions and learning, rather than just 'go ask your rav'. If a person is newly frum, then of course, they should go ask a rav, and perhaps two more for second opinions.

Btw, if I have devalued your minhagim, I am sorry. Personally, I am no longer bound by my charedi minhagim, and my family, together and as individuals, are deciding what minhagim we want to keep and what we want to consider changing.

I do know the difference between ashkenazi and fanatacs. And I know the difference between minhagim and halacha.

Has anyone ever wondered, how you get from a made up chumra that probably started out as good advice, "do you realize that these bags are the same ones we use for wheat!" to all the way to thinking that you get an aviera for eating kitniyos?? "OMG, my kid is eating Doritos!! Spit it out, Shloimy!!"

I once saw a ffb mom make her kid wash his mouth out for eating dairy when he was 'basari'! He didn't even remember that he had eaten meat, but too bad. Another minhag turned halacha that we freak out over. If she knew that this halacha came from a minhag, and that in some communities you only have to wait 1 hour, she might have reacted much more calmly.

Maybe because I don't live in a world where most people are hysterical in their observance, I also don't feel a need to question everything. You think extremes are unhealthy (I agree), so why adopt another extreme ?

There are many rabbanim who declare their kehila (or even "everyone") is allowed or forbidden to "insert whatever". It is of no concern except curiosity towards other groups if you are not his follower.
If you are his follower, you need to adopt everything and not pick and choose.

Judaism is very much doing what our rav says. Sorry. 70 panim le Torah, asseh lecha rav, etc. MO too follow their minhag and their rav (and not the rav of the charedi neighbour). Being MO is not a way of saying I pick and choose or I adopt all kulot I can find, on my own.

If you have the learning level of a smicha, then by all means you may not need a rav, though even rabbanim consult bigger rabbanim. You should find a rav you like and respect. In Israel there are really all types.

Charedi is an observance, not a minhag. Their practices vary widely according to their origin and their shitta. Many charedim eat kitniot. Many MO don't. The same way many MO wait 6 hours and had the Dutch community not been decimated in the Shoah, we would have tons of very very strict people waiting one hour, definitely there are 3 hour charedim. One observance isn't better than another, but nor is it a pick and choose.

I'm all for waiting one hour if that's your minhag. And 6 hours if that's your minhag. Maybe your husband can do hatarat nedarim and change his minhag as he doesn't have a problem of disrespecting his "fathers" by doing so. but then, again, it requires a rav.

I'm a foodie who grew up way OOT, regular Ashkenazi, and for one week I didn't have so many problems, so I don't think in Israel your problem is kitniot but associations towards being Ashkenazi and following derabbanan law. Maybe you could speak to rabbi Lawrence Keleman? Google him.

Gold Member Joined: Aug 23 2011 Posts: 1575

Ruchel, I agree with everything you said.

Applause

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 30 2006 Posts: 2595

I have some issues with kitniyot as it is observed today, however I would not follow Rabbi Bar-Hayim's ruling. It is based on a particular shita I don't follow.

Now, If another rabbi came up with a ruling based on other grounds, and his reasoning and sources were good, I'd take a look at it. That's not a guarantee, though.

More limited rulings on issues like oils are something else and I will follow lenient opinions if it's the practice of my community.

My family has always used Kitniyot oil.
_________________
גשם, גשם בוא!

Diamond Member Joined: Feb 14 2007 Posts: 2887

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 30 2006 Posts: 2595