A Satmar woman takes Deborah Feldman to task for allegations

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chavamom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 9:53 pm

FeigK wrote:

http://www.frumsatire.net/2012/03/04/dear-deborah-feldman-it-took-your-lies-to-realize-my-truth/

You realize that's an article from a website called "frumsatire.net"???? Rolling Eyes

WriterMom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 9:54 pm

chavamom wrote:

No, I more than "get it". What you don't get is that I disagree with you AND think that Simon and Schuster didn't vet this project very well.

So, we'll be seeing a lawsuit against S&S any minute now, right?

chavamom wrote:

Do you not realize that there is an entire genre of false "memoirs" that got past a publisher's "fact checker"?

Funnily enough, I'm aware of this. False memoirs are not slander.

chavamom wrote:

What gets my knickers in a knot is frum women who jump to believe this cock and bull story and defend it as if it were Torah miSinai.

This frum woman finds the hysterical anti-Deborah Feldman fits far more disturbing than anything in the book. I don't know that I believe her, but can't see why her book in and of itself is freaking people out who don't have a personal stake in the story and thus can't be expected to be objective.

Woman writes provocative book therefore people start up a website to cyber-stalk her. Woman writes provocative book and other sane functional women who are not part of her life (unless they're keeping that to themselves) have shrieking fits online. Woman writes provocative book and is slandered as a parent. What's next - throwing acid in her face?

See, there are no women here arguing that it's Torah misinai. There are people ON THIS SITE who have cyberstalking her, thrown fits at the mention of her name (or refuse to use her name) and attack her as a parent and a human being. ON THIS SITE. I have no trouble deciding which casts a worse light on "frum" women.

WriterMom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 9:57 pm

chavamom wrote:

FeigK wrote:

http://www.frumsatire.net/2012/03/04/dear-deborah-feldman-it-took-your-lies-to-realize-my-truth/

You realize that's an article from a website called "frumsatire.net"???? Rolling Eyes

Oh you'd like it, Chava, he's agreeing with you.

Of course he also spells curfew "cerfew," but we takes what allies we gets, I suppose.

celestial

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 9:58 pm

WriterMom, thanks for articulating all that. I'm behind what you wrote 100%.

chavamom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 10:02 pm

Lately, there is a whole crew that think that most of what passes for normal in the frum world reflects badly on frum women as a whole. I notice that most of this crew take comments (from an internet forum!) and group individual's comments into a monolithic group all speaking as one. One woman says "non-kosher Jew" instead of "mamzer" and suddenly it's "all you frum Jews are disgusting and keeping moshiach from coming". I have to say, I can't understand why such people continue to hang out on such a forum as it obviously increases their disgust and distrust of the frum community and does nothing for their personal middos. I also can't figure out how people who find such disgust and constantly see "THEM" (you know, those nitpicking women who are obsessed with deniers and have tossed middos?) as all that is wrong in the world want to be a part of such a crowd.

chavamom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 10:03 pm

WriterMom wrote:

chavamom wrote:

FeigK wrote:

http://www.frumsatire.net/2012/03/04/dear-deborah-feldman-it-took-your-lies-to-realize-my-truth/

You realize that's an article from a website called "frumsatire.net"???? Rolling Eyes

Oh you'd like it, Chava, he's agreeing with you.

Of course he also spells curfew "cerfew," but we takes what allies we gets, I suppose.

I read it a few days ago. If it's posted on that site, it's a joke.

FeigK

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 10:05 pm

maybe because its targeted at non-frum people?

chavamom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 10:05 pm

WriterMom wrote:

chavamom wrote:

FeigK wrote:

http://www.frumsatire.net/2012/03/04/dear-deborah-feldman-it-took-your-lies-to-realize-my-truth/

You realize that's an article from a website called "frumsatire.net"???? Rolling Eyes

Oh you'd like it, Chava, he's agreeing with you.

Of course he also spells curfew "cerfew," but we takes what allies we gets, I suppose.

And with that low blow, I move you to the "ignore" list. I really thought better of you, but lately, sorry, you've stooped to sniping at people you disagree with. I thought you a more intelligent than that.

WriterMom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 10:05 pm

chavamom wrote:

I have to say, I can't understand why such people continue to hang out on such a forum as it obviously increases their disgust and distrust of the frum community and does nothing for their personal middos. I also can't figure out how people who find such disgust and constantly see "THEM" (you know, those nitpicking women who are obsessed with deniers and have tossed middos?) as all that is wrong in the world want to be a part of such a crowd.

Why? Because there are fascinating and kind and lovely people here, from my sub-group but also from sub-groups very far from me, and I enjoy talking to them and learning from them, and seeing through their eyes even if I will never agree with them.

I'm not quite sure when you stopped being one of them, and it makes me very sad.

ETA: well, I guess that's one more difference between us - there's nobody here whose opinion threatens me so much that I have to use an "ignore" button (but gosh, would that have been handing in grade 7!)

33055

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 11:01 pm

I read the article and I read the book.

I received the book as a gift. I felt I had to read it. The book is not well written and not compelling IMO. I had to force myself to get past the first twenty pages. Normally, I am a voracious bookworm and will devour books.

DF writes about how she deceives people in her life. No surprise about her credibility. She acknowledges her own deceptions throughout the book.

The problem I have with the articles about her are that they are deceptive about what she writes. I have read many anecdotes about what she wrote and imagine my surprise they were not in the book. The writers who are painting her as a liar are lying themselves. I have reread portion of her book up to three times to see if I missed the fact they do not comport to what those are saying she wrote.

I am surprised that no one else has commented on the discrepancies about what her critics are saying she wrote and what she actually wrote.

chavamom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 11:04 pm

I haven't read her book but I have read what she wrote in her blog and what she said in some of her interviews. Does it matter that she didn't say it in the book?

33055

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 11:22 pm

chavamom wrote:

I haven't read her book but I have read what she wrote in her blog and what she said in some of her interviews. Does it matter that she didn't say it in the book?

Of course it does. If you want to call someone's credibility into question, then your own had better not be questionable. Why not just say she said it in her blog? Why say it is in her book? Why make yourself a liar to call someone else a liar?

As I have pointed out numerous times, people are misquoted in interviews. I have not read her blog. I can't imagine it is easier to read than her book which had the benefit of a professional editor.

chavamom

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 11:30 pm

I hope you aren't directing the "liar" comment at me. I've been very open about quoting what I read and where.

Lady Bug

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 11:43 pm

Chavamom, I agree with you. This is a site for frum women. Who are these posters who keep saying nice things about "you frum women"? And when did it go out of style to keep and respect halacha?

If you have an issue with a post, then take up the issue at hand with the poster who said it.

33055

Mon, Mar 05 2012, 11:44 pm

chavamom wrote:

I hope you aren't directing the "liar" comment at me. I've been very open about quoting what I read and where.

Of course not. It never occurred to me you would even think such a thing. I think you have integrity.

moonstone

Tue, Mar 06 2012, 1:46 am

yoshi wrote:

DrMom wrote:

My thoughts:

Not a badly written article. The author makes some valid points. Some criticisms:

1. The author is anonymous ("Rachel"). Why? She says she (or rather her sister) know DF. I suppose I will believe her, but we don't really have any more reason to believe her than we do DF. For all we know, the woman who wrote this piece is not even Satmar. It could be anybody. This anonymity damages her credibility.

2. She makes some claims about how DF lived and what she was thinking after she moved away from Williamsburg. How does the author know this?

3. She makes it sound utterly impossible for a Satmar bride to not understand what happens on one's wedding night. I have seen several posts here from women recounting their utter cluelessness and poor kallah class preparation, so it seems feasible that DF could easily have been a clueless kallah. Also, having limited access to a library does not mean one checks out books on anantomy or intimacy. One has to know what to look for.

4. I don't know what a chassidish bathing suit looks like, but I know that nowadays there are modest swimsuits for Orthodox clientelle that do include long sleeves and a skirt over long shorts. I don't know if they made those when DF was growing up.

5. I do think that her point about DF taking her particular experiences and generalizing are valid. It is easy to see how audiences seeing her interviews can think that her experiences are true for all Orthodox Jews.

I happen to know quite a few individuals who were somewhat confused, and clueless in this department. Some weren't even Jewish. They were socially awkward, or very sheltered. Why is it so inconceivable for people to think otherwise. They have NO clue about others upbringing or what's going on in another persons head.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but this is absolutely true. Years ago I read a book about China, and in it the author mentions speaking to a doctor who saw many Chinese peasants who couldn't get pregnant. Well, the reason they weren't getting pregnant was....oy, how can I say this so that it will make it past the censors...lets just say that it's impossible to get pregnant via how they thought relations were supposed to be done.

princessleah

Tue, Mar 06 2012, 10:29 am

Dead horse. Stick. beat beat beat.

Seriously, what is the point of that woman writing an article in the Jewish Press? It's just more preaching to the choir. I think the majority of people, on here and in the general frum world, acknowledge that DF is relating HER experiences and generalizing them to the general community.
I don't think anyone here (correct me if I'm wrong) believe that Chassidim in general have a policy or not caring about car seats and not believing in modern medicine. Would I say this 100% applies to everybody?
No, since there are always people who throw their kids into the back seat or ppl who would rather use a pigeon to cure a disease than a pill. But these are not policy overall and not based on "emunah" reasons.

She would probably make LESS money on this book if everybody would stop talking about it. So if you really want to hurt her, stop giving her all this free publicity!

WriterMom

Tue, Mar 06 2012, 10:30 am

Princessleah: word to all of that.

Fox

Tue, Mar 06 2012, 1:21 pm

, PrincessLeah and WriterMom! Let's not allow any of these folks to stretch their fifteen minutes of fame! The non-Jewish world seems to have lost interest, and we should follow suit in this case.

Besides, what can you ultimately say? These people were unhappy, and they left the community. As tragic as we consider it to be from a spiritual perspective, no one locked anyone up. They had enough freedom to leave.

So what's the story, ultimately? "I didn't like my community, and I'm really, really mad!" Fair enough, but there's a pretty long line of people who found elements of their childhoods to be wanting and set about to fashion different adult lives for themselves.

In fact, every BT I know and at least several recognized gadolim could tell essentially the same story: they found the communities of their youth to be lacking in various ways, and they set out to find something better. So far, though, few of these individuals have chosen to craft their identities out of exposing the alleged horrors lurking in the hidden underbelly of suburban secular Jewish life.

Chas v'sholom, I'm not trying to be flippant about the loss of these individuals to our communities, and in some cases, to klal Yisroel. But "I was unhappy so I left" is not really much of a story -- thus explaining why this book in particular uses such broad brushstrokes as to obscure the truth.

Arcy

Tue, Mar 06 2012, 5:04 pm

chavamom wrote:

FeigK wrote:

http://www.frumsatire.net/2012/03/04/dear-deborah-feldman-it-took-your-lies-to-realize-my-truth/

You realize that's an article from a website called "frumsatire.net"???? Rolling Eyes

I thought it was a great article... why is it on that site?

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