I'm not really Jewish according to YOUR group?

My mother is a convert. She converted with one of the strictest batei din, and is extremely frum, and has bought up a large family of frum children and dozens of grandchildren and great grandchildren.

But, reading the SY thread, it seems that almost every single one of her children, and presumably her daughters children, and so on, would not be considered jewish by some Sefardi communities.

How is this halachically ok?

I did not read the SY thread. I am guessing you are referring to the ban against marrying converts in the Syrian community. This in no way represents other sefardic communities. And by banning of marrying converts does that mean that they hold that converts are not Jewish? I kind of doubt that. The idea was to discourage conversion for the purpose of marriage, not to say that the idea of gerut is invalid.

My husband is Syrian and he would have no problem with our kids marrying your kids. But then again, we don't live in Brooklyn/Deal. Unless you live within a Syrian community in the US, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

OP here. Actually, in that thread it was mentioned that some other sefardi groups also have this "takana".

And I kind of understand why they felt they had to make a ban against geirim. My issue is that the ban seems to extend to children/descendents of gerim. And, as someone in that thread mentioned - her husband converted because his father was Jewish, (Syrian) but he is not accepted in that community.

btw several people in my family have married sefardim of different types. No syrians, but it could feasibly happen. We are a big family and not all identical in derech. I could see it happening that 2 young people meet, decide to marry - and wham - it comes out that bubby was a ger. weddings off.

Gold Member Joined: Dec 17 2007 Posts: 1880

And this is why I believe these takanos are assur min hatorah. There, I said it. We have rules about inui hager. They are serious rules.

Not in the safe haven, so I've donned my flame-retardant underpants. Have at it.
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Gold Member Joined: Dec 17 2007 Posts: 1880

It has nothing to do with not frum enough, or not good enough. It has to do with keeping non frum Syrians from intermarrying.
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Diamond Member Joined: Nov 30 2006 Posts: 2596

There is a question about the placement of a comma in the Brooklyn SY takana. Depending on how you read it, it can be taken to mean "conversion is invalid for marriage" or "we don't recognize conversion." I have heard stories that would support both assertions, so my only guess is that it is not agreed upon.

The argument in favor of the takana is basically, the ends justify the means. I have issues with that premise.

Gold Member Joined: Dec 17 2007 Posts: 1880

Gold Member Joined: Jan 12 2010 Posts: 2276 Location: US

I'm only answering because I posted in that thread (but not about the Gerus issue.) I really don't understand the rule and how it doesn't contradict "VeAhavta es Hager". My mother who is Sefardic but not SY was also troubled by the ban. (My father is SY).

But in a weird ironic twist there was actually a whole incident in Lakewood about a non Jew (possibly a ger, but questionable) who was posing as a frum Jew in the Sefardic Lakewood community. He was actually discovered because he was wanted and tracked down by the FBI and actually living under a false name. I even heard (but can't say for sure it's true) that the wife is innocent and was fooled by the husband. The story is here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=16236

(Just to clarify, I posted the story because I thought the irony was interesting, not at all to support the ban, which has little to do with an impostor.)

Interestingly around me, those most prejudiced against gerim are often not the frummest, by far.
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Moderator Joined: Jun 05 2011 Posts: 3377

I know nothing at all about the Syrian ban on marrying geirim, but I just want to add my two cents:

Life is not fair.

What about the mamzer, an innocent, adorable baby born out out of a forbidden relationship? Why is it "fair" that she cannot marry a Jew with a regular status? Is it her fault that her parents sinned?

And what about the baby who was accidentally dropped down the steps in middle of the night by a parent who tripped on a toddler's shoe, and was then paralyzed for life - is this fair to the cute little baby?

If we go about our lives searching for fairness, we're bound to be disappointed and angered very often!

P.S. In the times of the ruling of Shlomo Hamelech, geirim were banned, as the Jews were so prosperous that it was thought that non-Jews wanting to convert probably would not have holy intentions. Is that fair to the non-Jews of the time searching for the truth?
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Silver Member Joined: Nov 17 2011 Posts: 912

I would venture to guess that the very learned rabbanim who made this takana are aware of "inui hager."

I think that the intermarriage issue was so serious that they felt it was necessary to forbid even second gen gerim. They do not discriminate against gerim in any way other than not including them in their community.

Gold Member Joined: Dec 17 2007 Posts: 1880

Post hoc rationalization. Sorry, but they aren't the first rich jewish community and won't be the last, god willing. And we are under no obligation to make life any less fair than it would have ben otherwise, especially when it violates a direct torah law. Mamzer is the wrong analogy.

Suddenly I'm the machmir one in town? What happened? Xenophobia got your tongue?