3 year old "bully" in playgroup

Posted: Fri, Jan 13 2012, 11:39 am Post subject: 3 year old "bully" in playgroup

I'm putting "bully" in quotes because normally I wouldn't think that such a young girl could be a bully.

But she is! She's constantly hitting other kids, pushing them down, grabbing their toys away. More importantly (since she's so young) she has absolutely NO respect for authority. When I come to pick up ds, it's at the beginning of naptime, and she's always just screaming or running around while all of the other kids are already on their cots, some of them practically asleep already. The teachers tell to stop, say it in a stern voice, "threaten" her with time out...and she screams back "I dont' have to listen to you" or "I don't care!"

Is this normal behavior for a certain personality type? My son absolutely hates this girl, and I would never think that a kid his age was capable of hating so much. He started having real discipline issues recently, doing things I never would have dreamed he would do, and when I call him out on them he just says "But Sarah does them! It's funny! Haha!" But his face isn't laughing. Things like intentionally torturing his little brother by holding out something and then grabbing it away and screaming "NO! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!" without being provoked, or screeching and screeching (not a tantrum, not in response to anything) and refusing to listen by using the same lines I mentioned above, or just out of the blue running across the room and shoving his little brother down and stepping on him. Again, his excuse is always, "But Sarah does it! It's funny! Hahah!"

I talked to his teachers when it first started, and they said they sat down with both of them and it seemed to get better. His discipline issues lessened, and he was more or less back to normal. He would still tell me all the time "Sarah hit me because she wanted the trains and I had them" or "I like everyone in my whole class. But I don't like Sarah because she does things that are not nice." But fine.

A few weeks ago, the behavior issues started up again. I thought he was getting sick or something. Nope -- when I asked hiim if something was bothering him he started crying again and said that Sarah won't let him play in [one section of the classroom] and she shouts at him or hits him all the time, and that Yitzy (his friend) is always so nice but now Sarah tells him to do means things to ds and he listens! And Yitzy is his friend and isn't usually so mean, just when Sarah tells him to....etc.

(He's very verbal, so this vent wasn't surprising in terms of how detailed it was.)

I went back to the teacher, and she said she'd work on it. She told me that Sarah is in time out all the time and that they really try to be on top of her. I don't blame the teachers, I really don't. I don't know how I would be able to deal with such a kid either. But my kid is suffering! And learning horrible things from her.

My mother, as well as dh (to a lesser degree), both think that I should talk to the head of the preschool about it. According to my mother, who worked in a preschool for a little while, this kid should be expelled and her parents should be told to get her help. This isn't normal, etc. Dh thinks I should probably do that eventually, but wait and see whether things get better now. Things are definitely "better" in terms of ds's craziness, and have been better since that major vent that he had. But I hate to think that he's constantly being bullied in school and I have no way to even know about it! Teacher doesn't give me details no matter how much I ask, just "yeah, things were fine today." But sorry,I don't believe her anymore! She never told me there were any issues, even though I'd always ask her how things were, even when I KNOW he was being "bullied." So how can I trust her?

At the same time, I really don't want to go behind the teacher's back. But I don't want to tell her I'm going to the head either, because that would seem like a threat.

Help! I just want my ds to be happy and safe. And right now I feel like he definitely isn't Sad

Diamond Member Joined: Sep 18 2004 Posts: 2600

Doesn't sound to me like she needs to be expelled. She needs someone to work one-on-one with her within in the classroom.

Definitely talk to the head of the preschool. if they won't get a shadow for her, tell them you want one for your son - she can help him deal with sarah and protect him from her at the same time. (don't know the school so don't know how likely they will be to do something like this.)

Silver Member Joined: Oct 08 2007 Posts: 505

You need to be on top of the teachers until they DO SOMETHING about it, either they involve the girls parents to a greater degree, ask her parents to get her help etc. Or else yes, go to the head of the school.

I don't know if you would be able to get a shadow for you son, usually it's only the "problem" child that gets a shadow.

maybe speak to the parents of the girl, do you ever casually run into them during pick up time. I know that may be awkward, but you can do it in a nice way and see how they respond.
there may be something going on that family, I always tend to think that kids react to stress in the family lives one way or another, so........
good luck

Whoa! If this is an offshoot on the thread of bullying...I just want to preface this by saying that I was assuming, from Eltam's post, that we were speaking of grade school children, where bullying should not be tolerated and is entirely age-inappropriate.

In preschool, there are children who hit. It's normal for certain personality types for that age group. As much as it is hurtful to the child who gets hurt, it's not appropriate for the child to be expelled...rather, the teacher needs to learn how to deal with it appropriately so that it does not get out of hand.

(This is assuming that the child in question is "normal" - meaning has reasonable intellect, emotional and social intelligence, etc...)

I had this issue with my own DD when she was 2....she's a more lively, strong personality and she was hitting when she didn't get what she wanted. It hurt me that my DD was hurting other kids, and as much as I talked to her about it, it's the type of issue that has to be dealt with on the spot...so I paid for the Morah to have a session with a professional that I felt would give her appropriate tools to deal with it....(IMVHO if I hadn't offered to do that, it would behoove any Morah worth her salt to get the skills that sre necessary to deal with the age group she is teaching...but I felt it was in my child's best interest to do this so I did so.) B"H the Morah was able to handle DD appropriately and the behavior went away. This year's Morah says DD is a pleasure, B"H.

With all due respect....I think that you (and your DH and your mother) are having feelings to "Sarah" that are entirely unfair. Hitting and being out of control are normal behaviors for a 3 year old if that child isn't being handled appropriately by the adult in charge. And just simply being stern and saying STOP is NOT the correct way to deal with this...sorry but the teacher needs more tools that that (sounds a bit like those teachers who know how to handle perfect little angels, and are totally inept with children of a stronger nature. But I could be off, and maybe the teacher is taking steps to gain more tools to control her classroom situation).

I also think it's unfair to blame all of your child's behaviors on that child....some of them are normal for your child, and would be occuring regardless. (for example, having some discipline issues with a 3 year old is normal, and isn't always the result of spending a few hours a day with a child like Sarah).
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Chayalle

Just rereading your post makes my heart bleed for little Sarah:

I have a student like that. I'm working very hard on him. I give him a TON of positive attention. I try to put him into situations where it will be very easy for him to act appropriately then I shower him w/ complements. I started afew programs w/ him and b"h he's responding very well. He improved a lot since the year started, (and I pat myself on the back for it.) But he can still use very much improvement!

Diamond Member Joined: Dec 18 2005 Posts: 2919

Diamond Member Joined: Dec 18 2005 Posts: 2919

To add - many children who are the personality type like my DD (and possibly Sarah and the student abmom is dealing with - I don't know them enough to know for sure) are type 2 kids who crave power more than attention. They are kids that Hashem blessed with the need to be in charge. They are often strong willed and defy direct instructions. They are normal but simply (or not so simply!) need different methods for educating. Once you get it, they thrive!

My DH cracks up when he sees me offering DD the choice between two identical undershirts and asking her which one she'd like to wear. It matters a great deal to her to choose between two apples. If I tell her directly "sit down and eat your soup" she is likely to run to the other end of the house....But asking her if she'd like to sit on this chair or this chair to eat her soup...or would she like to eat now, or first do 10 jumping jacks...whatever....gets fabulous results. Choose is one of her favorite words.

In terms of aggression toward others, telling her in a calm way (like you're reporting on the weather outside) what she is doing wrong (you just took the train away from Moshe.....you potched Yitzi and you made him sad) and then giving her instructions, just as calmly about what she needs to do (you need to give him back the train....what are you going to do to make Yitzi happy) along with alternatives and/or consequences and restraint (would you like to play with the blocks?) and (if you can't share the toys and you take them away you will have to sit on Morah's lap for a bit and Morah will hold you until you can play without hurting other kinderlach) - with CONSISTENCY being the key (child knows how Morah will react every single time) worked very well with my DD and others.

I do have a hard time with one girl that is starting to find it funny to copy him. The tricks that works for the boy doesn't work for her as she does it only for attention (I think). If anyone found anything that worked I would appreciate some advice. (Maybe I should start a separate thread about it.)
To the OP.
First of all you're lucky your child is so verbal. As for the other child, it's hard to tell a teacher what to do, but I think the teacher should play with them. Example: Sarah playing in kitchen corner. DS goes over, "can I be the daddy?"
Sarah: No! You can't play with us.
Teacher: DS you wanna be my daddy?
Then the teacher should try to merge the families.
Teacher: Sarah we can be your neighbor. Can we come play at your house?
Sarah has to be really tough to resist that offer!
Hatzlacha!

Chayalle -- Thank you for posting your perspective. It really helped me to see that there might be a real way to deal with this girl that can help.

I will say that the teacher really tries. I have felt badly for her, for the little girl, and for the girl's parents (possibly them most of all, because I have no idea what I would do if she were my dd!). I do want to emphasize that when I said she "threatens" Sarah, I don't mean that she yells and screams at her. I mean that she says, "Sarah, it's quiet time now, please lie down on your mat" and Sarah screams at her that she doesn't have to listen. To which the morah then says, "Sarah, you need to lie down right now. Otherwise you'll need to go to time out until you're ready to listen."

Yes, based on what you said, that wouldn't work with your daughter, and it definitely doesn't work with Sarah. But it's not cruel. Ask about half the people on this board how they do time out with their kids and they will sound just like the teacher. (I do time out differently, but still.)

With that said...put yourself in my shoes for a minute. I'm not the teacher who can talk to other teachers, work on my skills, find techniques that will work for this girl. I don't think it would be my place to tell her to go to a professional for advice about how to deal with this girl, or to give her advice on my own about what she should do in various situations -- even if I did have the answers. I'm just the parent of another kid in the class, a kid who is constantly reenacting his issues with Sarah and crying to me about them. For example, half an hour ago, he lying in his bed trying to take a nap, and he cried out for us and told us that Sarah hit him over the head today, twice, and his head hurt, and his morah told her to stop but she kept on doing it. We put him back to sleep, and he sat there in bed reenacting the scene over and over again, telling Sarah "No! We don't hit! Stop!" over and over again and sounding really scared about the whole thing. Then he fell asleep.

So I understand how you feel, as the mother of the child who needs a different discipline style. But as the mother of another child in the class, what options do I have to help MY child? This is not a healthy way for him to live. He dreads going to playgroup now and gets so excited on Sunday mornings because he gets to stay home. It never used to be like this. And all he can talk about when I tell him about the exciting things he can do in playgroup (which he DOES love, and he likes his morahs too) is that Sarah is going to hurt him again.

As a parent, my heard bleeds for HIM. Can you blame me?

You are in a tough situation. I will try to think of something over shabbos.
What I do alot when my student hurts, I totaly ignore him and go to the hurt child and hug and kiss her saying "You're not allowed to hit my Chana! Right Chana?" Now the hurt child got my validation, love, and attention, while the hurter didn't get any negative attention but did hear 'You're not allowed to hurt'...
As the mother you can't do it cuz you're not there obviously... It must be really hard to watch this happen to your own son, yet feel like a bystander...

There is bright lively and creative, and plain bully too. I'm not politically correct and I do not think all bullies are bright (far from that) and not all bright kids are bullies either. Smile

Of course the teacher needs to learn to relate to this child too, but sometimes chutzpa or bad education is just that, and does not mean brightness...
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"You will have many many children and make successful shidduchim beh", rebbetzin Esther Jungreis
"It's all cultural, disagree respectfully", me

Diamond Member Joined: Dec 18 2005 Posts: 2919

time out for a kid can be cruel, especially once it is realized that it doesnt work. dont get me wrong, I think time outs can be a powerful and effective technique. but really, if its not working why pursue a failing experiment? time to get creative and try something else. why not ask the "bully" to help the morah clean the tables? or whatever. and there are lots of kids that have trouble with rest time. in my experience, the morahs usually work that out early in the year. those kids color or sit on morah's lap or listen to music with headphones, there are so many other things to do than repeatedly tell a child to be quiet and good when you know it doesnt work.
now, I get that you are not the morah, but the parent of the bullied child. what to do? well, honestly, you wont like what I have to say. if this is the best the morah can do, I would start looking for another place for my child. If the morah cant keep your child safe, she is plain and simple not doing her job. once in a while, yes, things happen. my 2 yo got bitten twice by the same child this year. I know how the morahs are dealing with it, I know how the mother is dealing with it, and my child still feels safe at playgroup. but if I felt they couldnt get it under control I'd have to pull my kid out of an unsafe situation.

Gold Member Joined: Mar 04 2008 Posts: 1595

Okay, so this kid is NOT a normal, difficult kid. The example I gave was by naptime (because that's what I saw this past week), but this happens when I drop him off in the morning too. She's always grabbing someone else's toy, hitting them, shouting mean things at them, or just being generally difficult, especially with the other kids. And she seems to never listen to authority.

I'm not saying this is her fault. I'm saying that the teacher is generally a competant teacher, but this girl is too much for her. On Friday, B"H she finally told me that she went to the office (I'd been thinking about doing that, but wasn't sure if that would help, and if it would be "going behind her back) about this girl, specifically ds's issues with her, because they happened again on Friday even though they tried so hard to separate them. She apologized profusely for letting it happen again, said that there was a lot going on that day and they didn't realize that the two were near each other, but that she was so sorry, etc.

So hopefully that will help someone. I honestly wish that this girl could qualify for a shadow or something. Having supervision over her would help a lot, I think. but I don't know whether there are any special needs at all, or if this is just a personality thing, or if it's a chinuch at home thing, or if she picked this up from older siblings or neighbors or something and her parents just can't get her back to "herself." No idea. But I think that some extra supervision would go a long way towards giving her the attention that she needs.

I'm not taking ds out right now because he takes a LONG time to transition to anything new. Like camp this past summer -- with a morah that I know was excellent, and a very low teacher/student ratio -- took him a long time to adjust to just because of the newness of it all. He even has a somewhat difficult time adjusting after long breaks, like Sukkos or Pesach! And he finally does have friends in this class, so I'd feel terrible tearing him away from them without trying to fix the situation in every way possible first.

Moderator Joined: Dec 18 2008 Posts: 3611

How many kids are in the class?

Get together with the other parents and together tell the teacher that either the 3 year old stays and you all leave or vice versa. There's no reason why the entire group has to suffer because of one child. Some children are simply not ready to be in a playgroup environment. Now a little wild behavior, an occasional smack is completely normal. When it's a daily thing, and worse an hourly type of thing going on then the parents must intervene. It's not fair to your child and I would most definitely not put up with it.
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Let your fellow's honor be as dear to you as your own and do not anger easily (Pirkei Avos/t)

There are ten or eleven kids.

I really have nothing to do with the other parents, except for one -- who works in the playgroup and so would not be willing to make that claim. I drop off later than they do and pick up earlier (4.5 hours a day, as opposed to most of them whose kids are there 8 hours or more). So I rarely see the other parents. The only other parent I see something is the mother of a real spitfire girl. I like her a lot, as does my ds, but I could see not getting "picked" on by this girl because of her personality. My ds is a really serious kid, socially able to keep up with the rest of them but really quite happy playing on his own. Always been relatively obedient (until recently), will move away from conflict rather than face it head on, and never really had hitting or biting problems, even as a toddler. My younger ds is not like this, but for my older ds...a girl like this is beyond him. I've tried to give him tools about how to react, but these tools just don't work with this girl.

The other mother I've talked to (who works in an older group there) told me that this girl spends a lot of the day in time out, but she's never really in the classroom to know what the issues are. (?)