Why would a yid WANT TO celebrate Thanksgiving?

MommytoB

Mon, Nov 21 2011, 10:28 pm

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

amother wrote:

I would go so far as to say that as Jews, we especially should celebrate Thanksgiving! It is the day set aside for Hakaras Hatov of this country, one of the few countries that has never persecuted it's Jews.

Yet.

There have been many other countries that have never persecuted its Jews... until the day that they did.

I don't usually jump into these debate posts though I have been following along as I was wondering if this thanksgiving post would differ from last years.

I did want to coment on TranquilityandPeace though...and not about Thanksgiving itself!

The comment that many other countries have never persecuted their Jews is at best an oversimplification of the history of European Jewry. Perhaps that is a great example of why World Jewish (and American Jewish) histoy should be taught in school. The sentiment would have been more accurate if you wrote that there were few countries that never persecuted their Jews. Throughout the many centuries that Jews lived all over Europe, there was persecution from expolusion from countries, laws limiting their trade, ghettos well pre-WWII, not to mention blood libels, crusades and pogroms...and I could keep going on throughout the thousand year history of Jews in Europe.

You could argue that since the enlightenment and certainly during the 20th century things have changed, but that was in more urban areas where many different cultuers were seen -- think Paris. In the countryside, the anti-semitism and dangers always remained.

So just looking at the history of Jews in their host countries, the experince of Jews in the United States in incomparable to pre-WWII Europe. The United States has welcomed Jews since before the 1790s when George Washington wrote his letter to the Rhode Island shul.

ElTam

Mon, Nov 21 2011, 10:46 pm

Well, this Thanksgiving, I will be ESPECIALLY thankful that I don't have any snarky, self-righteous amothers at my table telling me how much frummer they are than me and how their soul is more Jewish than mine because I think that American beats the heck out of most places on the planet for Jews and I also love that Friday won't be a madhouse because DH will be home from work to help me get ready for Shabbos.

Those who aren't celebrating Thanksgiving, perhaps you some of you might benefit from spending some of the day reviewing the rules of being DLKZ on other yidden and/or what the Torah has to say about humility (as in being humble about your own derech as compared to that of others).

Tzippora

Mon, Nov 21 2011, 10:49 pm

ElTam wrote:

Amen.

I see both my parents and my in laws, without having to spend a full 1-2 days for shabbos/yom tov. It's less stressful because everyone is off of work so I'm not missing major work events like I inevitably do for yom tov. And I get to cook the day of the holiday, with no deadlines other than my husband's desperate need to watch the second football game with his brothers, and if necessary he can stifle himself Smile

I LOVE Thanksgiving.

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 12:40 am

MommytoB wrote:

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

amother wrote:

Yet.

There have been many other countries that have never persecuted its Jews... until the day that they did.

You're right about many countries. Yet, you have to understand that there were many different circumstances.

When communication was limited, the same country could have several zones with lots of antisemitism and other zones where the Jews were advisers to the King or Poritz or Sultan!!!

Last edited by TranquilityAndPeace on Tue, Nov 22 2011, 1:01 am; edited 1 time in total

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 12:53 am

I have just one question for all of us imamothers on this crisp week of Thanksgiving:

IS THERE ONE woman here who is having a Thanksgiving dinner who believes that Jews should not do so?

IS THERE ONE woman here who is not having a Thanksgiving dinner who believes that she should do so?

Think about that.

Okay, you thought?

Everyone is defending their VERY OWN WAY OF DOING THINGS!

It reminds me of the Bush-Gore Supreme Court decision about the Florida vote in 2000.

I was just starting to understand politics back then. I remember that all of the GOP judges on the Supreme Court voted that Bush won Florida, and all of the Dem judges on the Supreme Court voted that Gore won Florida.

What a happy coincidence, that they all voted along party lines! The vote wasn't even about being pro-life or any other GOP vs. Dem issue! The vote was about how to count election ballots whose chad had been partially punched out!

That's what we do here on imamother - 99% of the time!

We vote for our positions - the positions we hold are true and act upon.

We write posts that are pro our positions!

At least I was intellectually honest enough to write that I have no delicious meal to give up by thinking that a Thanksgiving meal is less than fully appropriate for Jews. I give up nothing at all!

As I've said before, if anyone in my family did have a Thanksgiving meal - even if my mother were to decide tomorrow to invite me to her very first Thanksgiving meal - then I would probably come back here and delete my posts.

My thoughts are born out of years of watching many of my friends, family, and neighbors have Thanksgiving meals while I ate a regular Thursday night meal of mac and cheese. I thought about the issue based on the Torah knowledge I've gathered over the years, and came to my conclusion that made me feel content with the way I (don't) celebrate Thanksgiving.

Let's hear one person post that she believes the opposite of the way she does things might be the right way, but she is just continuing to do her way (either have the Thanksgiving dinner or not) because of her habit!

If one person would post that, that would probably be far more intellectually honest than the rest of us who are defending our positions.

And... if anyone in Baltimore wants to donate fresh Pumpkin Pie to an avid fan of all types of pies, PM me for my address! I may just have a whole 'nother perspective after one delicious bite! LOL

Isramom8

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 12:59 am

In the US my parents always hosted Thanksgiving dinner so that we could get together with non-frum relatives once a year without halachic issues.

In Israel we usually incorporate traditional Thangsgiving foods into our Shabbos meal that week, to teach our kids to appreciate their US citizenship. It's fun to have a menu change. When the grandparents weren't here one year, we skipped Shabbos Thanksgiving, and our kids missed it.

I have my kids watch the US Presidential Inaugurations, and I consider this a similar thing. A little recognition and appreciation never hurt a Chareidi child.

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 1:09 am

my last post here: (at least for tonight!)

If I wanted to know what to do, I'd ask someone who was very knowledgeable about what Jews should do, namely a rabbi.

(Since I don't really care to know, as I'm inclined to continue the status quo and feeling lazy about the kitchen, and it would be a burden for me to serve a big meal on a Thursday, instead of asking a rabbi, I just debate other posters with the simple thoughts and feelings of a humble Jewish woman who is open to being corrected on all of her posts when the truth of the matter is pointed out to her.)

Kugglegirl

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 1:14 am

Because it tastes good.

Because we can invite our non-religious & even our non-Jewish family members & not worry that they drove on Shabbas or Yom Tov to come.

& some times we get invited to our non-religious relatives for Thanksgiving & we can go. We bring our own food, though they were kind of upset the year we just brought bagels & cream cheese instead of shleping a whole turkey dinner to heat up double wrapped in the already full oven, but that is an other story.

Because I make the most amazing cranberry sauce & while I can serve it at other meals, it is just so much more stunning on a full Thanksgiving table.

Because I can cook it when I want to & serve it when I want to. 1pm, 5 pm, etc. & If I serve it earlier or later, it's also fine.

Because it means there is plenty left to make a great Shabbas meals.

Because I do have feelings of hakares ha tov for the United States. (Eating turkey, however, is not the only way I express that.)

Because I don't have to, I just want to.

& if you don't want to, you don't have to.

zaq

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 1:58 am

T&P: Why in the world would anyone argue the opposite of what they do? Is not claiming to believe one thing and doing the opposite the essence of hypocrisy?

I don't think one "should" celebrate T-day; I think it's a nice thing to do. I don't feel strongly about it the way I might feel about, say, recycling, which I feel very strongly one **should** do. I would try to persuade people who don't recycle to do so; I would not try to talk people who don't celebrate T-day into doing so. I would, however, argue vociferously with people who state that one **shouldn't** celebrate T-day. There's a world of difference, after all, between not thinking one must and thinking one must not.

Inspired

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 3:30 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

I believe that one should follow their rav. Personally I learned that thanksgiving may be chukas hagoyim so I do not go out of my way top celebrate it. Were I to be where my family is I would. I do feel like I should be eating turkey with my mother's awesome stuffing, candied yams and pumpkin pie while watching Alice's restaurant. Then I should go out and find Enteman's on sale and buy a pumpkin pie and a cocunut custard pie and eat them both for breakfast on shabbos morning (my mother's pumpkin is better but we only got one per years). I am not going to though.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 4:01 am

MommytoB wrote:

So just looking at the history of Jews in their host countries, the experince of Jews in the United States in incomparable to pre-WWII Europe. The United States has welcomed Jews since before the 1790s when George Washington wrote his letter to the Rhode Island shul.

I agree that Jews were much better off in the states, although I don't think they were necessarily better of in America than in any other country where Jews were a tiny percent of the total population for most of America's history.

I think it's overly simplistic to say that America has always welcomed Jews. Less than a century ago it was still dangerous to be openly Jewish in many parts of America. Universities and businesses were still allowed to openly discriminate against Jews (my great-grandfather was only able to get an education and a job by claiming to be Lutheran). America turned Jews away during WWII.

I'm not saying this to denigrate America or say it's not a great place to be Jewish today. I just don't like inaccurate history. And too much praise of America re: its treatment of Jews could lead to criticism of American Jews for many of the things they did back in the day.

sequoia

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 5:18 am

Raisin wrote:

Guess who the (white) population of America is made up of? English, Germans, poles, italians, irish, scandinavians, etc etc.

Why would you feel more comfortable in this population then in say, Denmark, which has almost no history of persecution against the Jews?

America is a wonderful free country, so are many many other countries in the world. Its not the only one.

Sequoia, have you read the plot against america, by Philip Roth?

First of all, one doesn't judge people by their nationality but by their actions. Second, what's wrong with being English, German, Polish, etc? Why is that a negative thing? Third, the reason I feel comfortable in America is because it's my home, plain and simple.

No one said it was. This is a thread about Thanksgiving, so we're discussing America. No one is denigrating other countries.

No, is it worth it?

Apple pie

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 5:37 am

ora_43 wrote:

MommytoB wrote:

I agree that Jews were much better off in the states, although I don't think they were necessarily better of in America than in any other country where Jews were a tiny percent of the total population for most of America's history.

I think it's overly simplistic to say that America has always welcomed Jews. Less than a century ago it was still dangerous to be openly Jewish in many parts of America. Universities and businesses were still allowed to openly discriminate against Jews (my great-grandfather was only able to get an education and a job by claiming to be Lutheran). America turned Jews away during WWII.I'm not saying this to denigrate America or say it's not a great place to be Jewish today. I just don't like inaccurate history. And too much praise of America re: its treatment of Jews could lead to criticism of American Jews for many of the things they did back in the day.

This.

I don't take a stance about Thanksgiving celebration, but let's not idealize America either.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 5:38 am

sequoia wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

And too much praise of America re: its treatment of Jews could lead to criticism of American Jews for many of the things they did back in the day.

What things???

And how much praise is "too much"? Sounds almost Shakespearean... too much praise...

"Too much" is when it's not accurate anymore. Like saying that America gave everyone religious freedom from the start, when in fact there were groups (eg. native Americans) that were only able to practice their religion much much later. Or saying that Jews were always welcome, when even in New York they faced anti-Semitism, let alone in the south and the midwest.

If people believe that Jews were always welcome in America with open arms, how will they understand the many Jews outside NYC who lied about being Jews pre-1950s or so? Or the fact that almost nobody went around with a kippah (or covered hair, for women)? Or American Jews' reluctance to demonstrate during the Holocaust?