Why would a yid WANT TO celebrate Thanksgiving?

hadasa

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 1:39 am

It's true that this debate is very cultural. I grew up in a community (not in US) where the idea of "Bechukoseihem lo telechu" and the aversion to adopting non-Jewish customs was very much ingrained. That's why, in the country where I live now, I am loathe to celebrate the national non-religious holidays, whereas I see many Israeli Chareidim living here don't have the same sensitivities, not having grown up with this awareness. For me, at least, the issue is more emotional then ideological.

I don't see what eating turkey has to do with being a light to the nations, which is about us influencing them, not about us adopting their customs.

In any case, I definitely think that if celebrating this day will be conducive to positive familial relationships, that probably outweighs most objections.

Rodent

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 2:39 am

My comment was not about turkey as such, it was in reference to being 'insular' ideologically which was a bit of a spin-off.

Go ahead and don't celebrate, I don't care as long as the ability to do so isn't taken away from those that do want to celebrate as happened to me when working in a Jewish school in NY. That said, for those of us with non-Jewish family or non-religious family, Thanksgiving is a great opportunity to get people together outside of religion and create good will which can have a great impact on those outside of our own communities. I actually wish we had it here for that opportunity to get together and celebrate with my family which I can't now.

ora_43

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 2:40 am

fmt4 wrote:

Of course there will be people and institutions that will be anti-semitic. That is completely different from a country advocating policies that are specifically anti-jews, or anti-anyone for that matter. America has never done that, and I don't believe they ever will. As I said, the foundation of a country is so important. And America's foundation, though not perfect, is not built on thousands of years of religious persecution and bloodshed, against Jews or between Christians themselves.

Official American policy was to separate Native American children from their families and raise them as good Christians, without their own language or religion. And that was the good days, after the open slaughter stopped.

And as Raisin mentioned, there was that whole slavery thing... and of course segregation.

This isn't hundreds of years old history, it's the 1950s.

You guys are making me feel like the bad guy who's listing all of America's faults Sad

. I don't want to be that person. But to me this is like what people are saying on the Artscroll biography thread. Portraying a person as having been born great, instead of being honest about their slip-ups and struggles and everything they overcame, is not a compliment. Ditto for countries.

ora_43

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 2:50 am

marina wrote:

And Ora, the other nations don't care if all the Jews go live in Israel. No one is going to travel there and take notes on how the Jews live their ideal lives.

Why not? People come here to learn about water conservation, Holocaust studies, heart surgery, disaster response, AIDS prevention, Yad Sara's medical-equipment-loaning program, etc. I remember learning about certain Israeli policies in my environmental policy courses in the states.

And the international media coverage of Israel is disproportionate to say the least.

So I think there's room to say that if Israel were to excel in other aspects of keeping Torah, it would get coverage. And some of that is already the other nations learning from us - see the Yad Sarah centers in Uzbekistan and South Africa, for example.

Another factor is that when Jews come together, they can extend chessed in an organized way. Like ZAKA, Israel Flying Aid, the IDF, etc, have done in places like Indonesia and Haiti. Not many people have the resources to do that as individuals.

(And just to be clear, none of this has anything to do with Thanksgiving)

ora_43

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 2:56 am

marina wrote:

And also I find this entire thread and its title to be incredibly offensive. I read the title and was reminded of why I am no longer part of the frum world.

Because there's an anonymous woman out there somewhere with a chip on her shoulder about Thanksgiving?

The title is offensive, but the thread is full of 30 or so people explaining why they celebrate Thanksgiving and how much they appreciate America, and only one saying that she thinks celebrating is wrong. What's upsetting about that?

Marion

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 4:43 am

We're having Thanksgiving for the 1st time ever this year. We're not American (Thanksgiving is not "big" in Canada). My American neighbour, at whose home the festivities/meal is taking place also has never made Thanksgiving in Israel before. However, her son is here for a visit and she thought Thanksgiving dinner would be a chance to have everyone over at once for him to meet her friends in her new life (she's been here 4 years already, but he's never visited until now). So I'm bringing pumpking pie (never made it before in my life) since I understand it's a common Thanksgiving food. So sue me, I like a good meal and I don't have to cook!

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 6:08 am

ora_43 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Ora, it may be a generation thing. There are still people like that, especially older, even in very Jewish places. They feel no danger but they hold religion is a private matter.
As for no kipa/kissui they may be the type of MO who doesn't wear, or "not used to wearing it out of shul, no one did that when I grew up".
I still know of people in their 40's who will find a way around the question when asked if they are Jewish, even in very Jewish places. It's "personal".

This is not my mentality, but I keep seeing it.

Trust me, it's wasn't just a cultural thing unconnected to feeling danger. Maybe that's what it is today, but at least according to the people I know, that's not how it started.

People in their 40s are a totally different generation with different circumstances. Not sure what the connection is to pre-1950s America.

I don't know, Ora. My grandfather commented on people doing this in Krakow pre-war, and I asked him if they were already afraid of the Poles. He laughed and said, if a Pole had come in the Jewish area and tried anything, he wouldn't have gotten out alive.

The connexion to pre 50's America is that what people in their 40's do now is often learned from their parents, grandparents...

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 6:12 am

fmt4 wrote:

America is a country that is unique and different from any other country in that it was built on the idea of freedom and equality.

Depends when you count as the beginning of America as a country.
Conquistadors certainly didn't care for these values.

Edit to add: I think (some?) French yeshivos have a day or a half day off for the 14th July (we don't call it Bastille day).

sarahd

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 6:26 am

Ruchel wrote:

fmt4 wrote:

America is a country that is unique and different from any other country in that it was built on the idea of freedom and equality.

Depends when you count as the beginning of America as a country.
Conquistadors certainly didn't care for these values.

She means the United States of America was founded on the principles of freedom and equality.

Raisin

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 6:51 am

ora_43 wrote:

fmt4 wrote:

Thank you Ora. Yes, America is a wonderful country, but it is just as ridiculous to say that america has never done anything wrong as to say that "every country in europe is covered with Jewish blood". Really? Yes, a few European countries have unpleasant histories. The country where I grew up, England, has had no major antisemitic incidents since about 1300. And has been a pretty free place to live for about 300 years, as has most of western Europe. In fact, many people today would argue that europe nowadays has more respect for human life then the USA.

And forgetting the wrongs the USA did to blacks and Indians is like a german saying: the Nazis are ok. they got the trains running on time and gave me a job! they are great. Never did anything bad to me.

zaq

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 8:07 am

Tzippora wrote:

Raisin wrote:

The country where I grew up, England, has had no major antisemitic incidents since about 1300.

Um, that's because they kicked all the Jews out of the country for the next few hundred years, isn't it?

Correct. The Edict of Expulsion in 1290 expelled the Jews of England. Chances are a few isolated crypto-Jews remained in hiding here and there (heck, no, we won't go!)and the occasional individual of especial value to the Crown was given permission to visit, but England was essentially Judenrein. The Edict remained in effect until 1656, at which point England dearly wanted Ducth Jews to divert their business from Holland to England.

Raisin

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 8:12 am

Tzippora wrote:

Raisin wrote:

The country where I grew up, England, has had no major antisemitic incidents since about 1300.

Um, that's because they kicked all the Jews out of the country for the next few hundred years, isn't it?

that is true. But certainly since the jews were let back in (in about 1650 or so) not much has happened. Maybe individual people were antisemitic, but the same can certainly be said about the USA.

And if you take other countries in europe there is not too much of an antisemitic history there either.

Raisin

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 8:41 am

sarahd wrote:

Which countries in Europe don't have much of an anti-Semitic history? The Jews were expelled from just about every country in Europe. Denmark may not have been anti-Semitic 70 years ago, but I don't think an identifiable Jew would feel comfortable there. (Dh has a client from Denmark who left because of the anti-Semitic feeling there.)

Really? I know people in denmark and they have never complained about anti semitism. there are lots of muslims there however, so they might be causing issues.

Your husbands client probably left more becasue there is not much of a frum community.

sarahd

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 8:56 am

Raisin wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Well that too, but he does tell my husband how sad he is about what happened to the country he loved/s (he still has the house number from his house in Denmark hanging in his new apartment here.)