I wasn't raised frum so please forgive my faux pas...

I did not know and therefore I am asking this question with sincerity.. but I thought tznius was about covering up the knees, elbows, shoulders and no wearing of fitted clothes that outline the hips, rear end or bust line. I did not know that my frumpy shmattes were not tznius.. please explain
but to be certain, I spend most of my days in places where no one relies on my professional input.. I am a stay at home mother.
I like being able to just throw on an apron to cook and clean.. but if I was wearing a smart suit and blouse w/ stockings every time I went out I would have to change out of those clothes to take care of my domestic duties.

I think it's more of a NY thing than a frum thing. Did you grow up in NY? For us out-of-towners people in NY always seem dressed up.

Gold Member Joined: Sep 22 2009 Posts: 1745

since you say you are asking sincerly I will answer sincerly:
you are confusing two terms
there is tznius the guidlines to which you can find by your rav and then there is the norm for your comunity the guidlines for which you can find, well in the way other women in you comunity dress.

so you frumpy shmattes (I am quoting you) might be perfectly tznius (I havn't seen them so I don't know) but they also might not confirm to the norms of your comunity - and from your post it seems they don't. in this case you have a few choices:
1. change the way you dress and fit in
2. move to a different comunity
3. decide to continue dressing the way you dress even though it is not the norm.

If you choose to do number 3 don't be surprised if you attract some looks and maybe find it hard to make friends - It has nothing to do with frumkite it is simply social norms and fitting in which exist everywhere.

As I understand it, there are several aspets to tznius apart from the obvious thing where you cover up such-and-such an area of your body.... it's also about attracting undue attention to yourself. That's the reason why we don't wear bright red - even though technically, a big bright red tunic could be loose with long sleeves and a high neckine, but you would stick out like a sore thumb and people's eyes would be drawn to you in a crowd.

That's the reason why clothes that are waaay out of the community norms are not tznius. Rav Falk's book mentions women from Oriental communities where they wear brightly-colored clothes. He says that because brightly-colored garments are considered the norm in those communities, then women are not being un-tznius when they wear those kind of clothes *among their own people*... but if the same kind of clothing were worm elsewhere, it would not be tznius.

If you are somewhere a dressed-down woman is never seen, then you will stick out.
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Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48159

OP, you need to learn the dinim with a shiur or a friend and a sefer. Tsnius is a whole can of worms !!!

Thank you both for your honest replies. I did not know that very bright colours and wild patterns were a breech of tznius, but now I realize why it is so.
I guess I am secretly hoping that the dress standard in my community would veer a little more towards the relaxed, colorful and 'hippy" look.
My fantasy is that when Moshiach comes we will all wear colourfull flowing robes and head scarves. perhaps I ought not to dress as though Moshiach had arrived.

Gold Member Joined: Sep 22 2009 Posts: 1745

Platinum Member Joined: Mar 12 2009 Posts: 13203

I guess a lot of you live in very tight communitities. But in many parts of north NJ, in Manahattan, the Bronx, Chicago and other areas in the midwest I(those are the ones I've lived in!) you can wear your hippy look as much as you like. But, and it's a big BUT, people might still form opinions about you based on your dress. Because it's not the norm anywhere, it's not really fashionable in regular society, and it does set you apart as more left wing.

You're in MOnsey? Of ocurse you stand out int he sea of black!

This general concept is one that I have been mulling over for a while. Let's say you dress like a hippie, and your neighbors are cold toward you and don't include you in their plans. Let's say. You might be offended. But this is a safety measure - hear me out. We all use heuristics - which is coming to conclusions quickly without all of the facts. If you are walking down the street at night and someone is walking toward you with a hooded sweatshirt covering their face, you will be scared. But maybe the other person was just cold! If you go to a singles event and there is a man with long fingernails and tzitzis sticking out of his fly because he was too negligent to zipper it properly, you probably won't want to sit with him - but he might be the nicest guy, just a little absentminded. Why would you rush to judgment? Because, if you marry him, he might be too negligent to pay bill on time.

So here, your neighbors see a hippie-dippie woman, and they say, subconsciously - wow, she seems different, I wonder if she knows the laws of kosher. Maybe if I become friends with her, she will invite me over, and I will feel pressured to eat in her house, which I am not sure is kosher (by the way, I do think this sometimes). Next - maybe her kids will be a bad influence on my kids. I try so hard to keep TV and movies out of my house, maybe her kids will introduce this. Maybe my husband will be attracted to her, and she seems kind of untznius already, or at least different from the norm. Or maybe they are saying, I am so busy with my kids and my job, why do I want to take time out of my life and make room for this person, whom I am scared of?

self-actualization, I sort of agree with what you're saying but I think those examples are a bit dramatic. IMHO the usual response is more of a subconscious "that person's clothes are saying that she isn't 'my type.'" And then a sort of - "well if she doesn't see herself as part of my circles, she's probably not interested in being friends/ we wouldn't have much in common."

I agree that it's an issue in every community. Not that "hippy-ish" clothes are a problem everywhere - but in one area "hippy" clothes will lead people to assume you see yourself as running in different circles, in another area, a burka will do the same Wink

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Platinum Member Joined: Mar 12 2009 Posts: 13203

Diamond Member Joined: Oct 25 2007 Posts: 4863

Executive Member Joined: Dec 03 2009 Posts: 322

I would like to nominate Fox's post above for post of the year! I find it to be balanced, thoughtful, and well written. I hope we ALL take a message from it. We can change the world one little tiny action at a time. I think Fox,s suggestions are a great place to start!

Platinum Member Joined: Mar 12 2009 Posts: 13203

[quote="Fox"][quote="self-actualization"]This general conce Likewise, we must remember that jettisoning achdus because our neighbor wears a full skirt rather than an A-line skir]

We need to realize that she might be built like a triangle and look horrible in an A-line.

Diamond Member Joined: Jun 29 2011 Posts: 3038

If comfort, washability, and a bit of originality is what is being mentioned, this might interest:

http://www.onestopplus.com/Pro.....1b2166c62d

http://www.onestopplus.com/pro.....ec=Certona

http://www.buycheapr.com/us/result.jsp?ga=us1&q=pullover+dresses

This would need an over-blouse:

http://www.target.com/p/Mossimo-Women-s-Kimono-Sleeve-Maxi-Dress-Assorted-Colors/-/A-12958170

If you are wearing tichels on your head, just buy two exactly the same, one for your head and the matching one around your neck or shoulders. That's not hard, and there you are, knocking 'em dead with your matching stuff. Most tichels machine-wash in a mesh laundry bag in cold water, and if chosen right, don't need ironing. Aliexpress has scarves wholesale.

You are going to look great greeting Moshiach in your flowing robes and nicely accessorized tichel. I hope to see you there soon. We are going to dance and dance.

I'm BT too.

Platinum Member Joined: Jun 30 2009 Posts: 8233

I think you have to dress bakovidik, and if you are describing your clothes as "frumpy shmattes", then they are probably not appropriate for outerwear.

If, on the other hand, you wear "hippy-ish" clothing but think they are respectable and dignified, then I don't think it's an issue.