Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?

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Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?
By: Elliot Resnick

Date: Wednesday, January 26 2011

A recent article in the Wall Street Journal by Yale Professor Amy Chua - "Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior" - has inflamed passions across the country. The blogosphere is ablaze while The New York Times, Newsweek, Time and hundreds of other news outlets have run articles and often angry opinion pieces debating the wisdom of Chua's authoritarian - some argue abusive - parenting tactics.

Excerpted from her new book, Battle Hymn to the Tiger Mother, the article argues that Western parents are far too indulgent of their children's desires. Chua's own children were not allowed to watch TV, play computer games, get anything other than an A in school, be anything other than the number-one student in every subject (except gym and drama), or play any instrument other than piano or violin - which they had to play whether they wanted to or not.

Chua ackowledges, "The fact is that Chinese parents can do things that would seem unimaginable - even legally actionable - to Westerners. Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, 'Hey fatty - lose some weight.' By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of 'health' and never ever mentioning the f-word, and their kids still end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image."

According to Chua, "Western parents are extremely anxious about their children's self-esteem. They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital. In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently."

Interestingly, amid all the debate regarding Chua's parenting model, some have argued that people should look to the Jewish community for a paradigm of successful parenting that churns out successful and happy adults. How would one describe this model? Liberal and permissive, they claim.

"Do we [Jews] ascribe to more lax, permissive parenting that's wrapped in Jewish-mom guilt?" asks Wendy Sachs on the Huffington Post in reaction to Chua's article. "Without a doubt," she answers, boasting that Jewish kids routinely talk back to their elders.

On another blog, George Mason law professor David Bernstein argues that "Jewish parents are known for their permissive parenting [a]nd Jewish kids seem to do alright."

And in an article titled, "Why Chinese Mothers are not Superior," entrepreneur Martin Varsavsky argues that Jewish parents "spoil" their children and if they "get a bad grade [their parents] go and fight it out with the teacher."

I frankly was quite surprised to learn that people consider Jewish parenting to be lax and permissive. Certainly traditional Jewish teachings would not give one this impression. Proverbs, for instance, famously declares, "Spare the rod, hate the child" (13:24) and "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him" (22:15). Indeed, the sentiment expressed in these verses is so embedded in Judaism that Jewish law does not treat a father or teacher who accidentally kills his child or pupil while disciplining him as a murderer.

Nor do biblical heroes exhibit much in the way of permissive parenting. Sarah advices Abraham to banish his son Ishmael and God agrees with her. Jacob curses two of his children on his deathbed - hardly the act of a fawning parent. King David may be an exception, but not a laudatory one. Indeed, the book of I Kingsimplicitly blames David for Adonijah's attempt to seize the throne. Why was he at fault? Because "[David] never distressed [his son Adonijah] by asking him, 'Why have you have done such and such?'" In other words, he spoiled him.

Writing about parenting, Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch argues that if one wants one's child to "subordinate his likes and dislikes to a higher authority" - the basis of all of Judaism - then one must start training him at an early age. Hence, Rav Hirsch exhorts parents: "Train your child, from the very first year of his life, to obey any reasonable order you may give him . Your child must learn to do whatever you tell him to do and, above all, he must never - even once would be too often - be allowed to think that if he torments and annoys you sufficiently, he can get you to permit what you original forbade him."

An ode to permissive parenting? Hardly.

Of course, nowadays many Jewish parents - secular, and even religious - do not always follow traditional Jewish teachings on parenting. But this move toward a more liberal parenting style is relatively recent, and the results of this shift remain to be seen.

Certainly the parents of most of the Jewish success stories we are familiar with were not "lax and permissive." Indeed, the notion of permissiveness as a virtue hardly existed until a few decades ago. The stereotypical classical "Jewish mother" of yesteryear - while of course doting - was a no-nonsense presence in the house.

Fathers were even sterner. Some - like the hero of the popular book All for the Boss and Rav Yosef B. Soloveitchik's father - did not even kiss their children. My own great-grandfather was so strict that he once hit his grown son - who himself was already a father - for making an inappropriate remark at the table. His son's reaction? He kissed my great-grandfather's hand and said, "I'm sorry."

Therefore, to call "Jewish" parenting "lax and permissive" is simply inaccurate. The Jewish parenting style preserved in classical Jewish sources and folklore may or may not be synonymous with Chua's model of Asian parenting - but lax it is not.

Elliot Resnick is a Jewish Press staff reporter and a Ph.D. student at Yeshiva University's Bernard Revel Graduate School of Jewish Studies.

Posted: Thu, Jan 27 2011, 10:52 am Post subject: re: Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?

Traditional Jewish parenting is quite strict!

Now, wishy washy PC lovey dovey Jewish parenting is wishy washy PC lovey dovey.
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Posted: Thu, Jan 27 2011, 11:01 am Post subject: re: Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?

What I see outside of very traditional minded homes where parenting is quite strict, is a mix of laissez-faire and yelling/hitting when the parents go nuts.

Posted: Thu, Jan 27 2011, 11:08 am Post subject: re: Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?

I agree both with Ruchel about traditional Jewish parenting being strict, and wishy washy PC parenting (especially in the USA while I assume not so much in France and Europe in general) gets you something else. And I agree with Mevater that in many places traditional Jewish parenting, at least in the past generation, is gone.

But...the big Jewish success stories were usually not kids of 25 today brought up PC but rather people of my age and older who were brought up much more traditionally.

In my house (and this is how I raised my kids as well) you were expected to excell in everything you could. To get the highest grades you were capable of getting and that was HIGH. Anything less was not acceptable. The question "who got the hundred" when you only got a ninety nine on an exam, was the normal question in my house. In my husbands it was never asked....as he never got less than 100.

My house was permissive in the fact that I had very little parental supervision as both of my parents worked. What it meant was that I could watch TV as much as I wanted, I could watch what I wanted and basically I could wander all over NY as I got older if I ever decided to do so, as long as I got 100 on the exams and excelled at anything I did...which I pretty much did as did many of my classmates. The saying "the dumbest Jew is smarter than the smartest gentile" wasn't coined in my school but it was sure the motto, be it racist, true, or not.

There were limits when my parents were around, but they weren't TV as I never watched when they were home, nor were they culinary, no one was fat, we all ate my grandmother's jewish cooking, no pickiness, no complaints and she didn't serve things we didn't like so it was no problem. My husband however remember his mother serving burnt cold meals as she was and still is not a good cook, but as he said, they all ate up everything on their plate as that's how it was done. No complaints. No protests, as he knew that his mother's mother's cooking had been even worse (how could that be possible? But my father in law swears by that one too...).

As for the mamby pamby parenting and the kids ending up in therapy, here's a head's up for you. Chinese kids brought up the traditional way often break and end up in therapy. They just do it differently and later. Jewish parents are more aware so they send their kids to therapy as young adults, or the kids do it themselves. chinese "kids" more often will go to therapy in their 30s or even 40s when they come down with stress related illnesses. But the numbers are the same.

Which means what? There is a good discipline in expecting from your child the best that he or she can do. But to regulate everything? Nah, rather give them a good sense of responsibility and choose your battles wisely.
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Posted: Thu, Jan 27 2011, 11:50 am Post subject: re: Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?

A healthy dose of moderation is what DH and I try to do ,we are big believers in respecting the child but do ensure we get respect back,by giving fair warnings ,following through with any consecuence needed ,the kids know we mean it ,and are pretty good most of the time . B"H we are a solid team and the kids know it ,I trust DH and he trusts me 100%.

We do what barbara coloroso calls parenting with a backbone...being flexible but not to the point where the structure is lost .

we start off with attachment parenting then we move on gradually to a more authoritative model to allow for personal growth and independance. we encourage respect creativity ,kinddnes and empathy.

And FTR we are human do our best but have been known to yell and potch in extreme cases if needed (not hard and not to often as IT HURTS ME)
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Jewish families are larger than Chinese families. We also have a lot more rules (halacha). I think people can't be strict with everything. Don't know if I'd call it lax, though.

Posted: Thu, Jan 27 2011, 11:57 am Post subject: re: Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?

A traditional Chinese family will have soooo many social and moral and conduct rules!
A non religious Jewish family can also be 1 or 2, a religious one as well if they are modern or if Hashem decides so.

Senior Member Joined: Aug 25 2009 Posts: 248

What's "Jewish parenting?" On this board alone we see so many different hashkafot; parenting styles also differ amongst us. "Modern parents, more traditional parents", too hard to generalize the idea of "Jewish" parenting.

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 01 2009 Posts: 8202

Its hard to say we are lax...school days are much longer than PS. Lives are restricted from the moment kids are born with halacha...how is this permissive?
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Writing about parenting, Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch argues that if one wants one's child to "subordinate his likes and dislikes to a higher authority" - the basis of all of Judaism - then one must start training him at an early age. Hence, Rav Hirsch exhorts parents: "Train your child, from the very first year of his life, to obey any reasonable order you may give him . Your child must learn to do whatever you tell him to do and, above all, he must never - even once would be too often - be allowed to think that if he torments and annoys you sufficiently, he can get you to permit what you original forbade him."

Elliot Resnick is a Jewish Press staff reporter and a Ph.D. student at Yeshiva University's Bernard Revel Graduate School of Jewish Studies.[/quote]

Yes, the parent - child relationship is a metaphor for how we have to relate to Hashem as an authority/parent figure but that parent is a loving parent. And as RSRH says elsewhere, a parent shouldn't specialize in saying no, in fact, say yes whenever possible, so your noes will be me more meaningful and easily accepted. And - maybe over Shabbos exact sources will come to me - for some reason I can hear Rav Hirsch's voice extolling the loving warm nurturing Jewish mother.

We can't confuse formality (e.g. addressing parents in the third person) and the above quote, with the stern loveless Asian model. Maybe that's not fair, this IS how the parents express their love. But not my mesorah for sure.
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The righteous praise and honor people for every good quality that is found in them while the wicked seek out faults in others to pull them down, even if they repented those deeds. (Rabbeinu Yonah, from Partners in Kindness)

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48152

I think this question is ... loaded. How about, is the Jewish diet unhealthy?

Posted: Fri, Jan 28 2011, 12:01 pm Post subject: re: Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?

Depends which one.

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Diamond Member Joined: Oct 25 2007 Posts: 4846

The WSJ piece responding to the original "Chinese Mothers" article was a disorganized mess. It was clearly thrown together and published to keep the flames going -- and keep the WSJ's name everywhere. She could have thrown a good kugel recipe in and it would have made just as much sense.

Platinum Member Joined: Mar 12 2009 Posts: 13182

Posted: Fri, Jan 28 2011, 4:05 pm Post subject: re: Is 'Jewish' Parenting Lax?

I didn't really like elliot resnick's article. All it had to say was a bunch of quotes from different sources about strictness,etc.

Instead, I really liked slovie jungreis-wolff's article on aish. The point of being strict is not the point. It is to raise a conscientious human being who is caring and not selfish.
uch.. it's too close to shabbos to even express my thoughts well...

http://www.aish.com/f/p/Are_Chinese_Parents_Superior.html

Are Chinese Parents Superior?
by Slovie Jungreis-Wolff
A Jewish response to Amy Chua's extreme parenting.

When Amy Chua was a little girl, she was extremely disrespectful to her mother. Her father angrily called her �garbage� in their native dialect.

Today, Amy is a mother herself. When her daughter, Sophia, acted extremely disrespectfully, Amy called her �garbage� in English. One evening at a dinner party, Amy mentioned what she had done. She felt immediately ostracized. A guest even broke down, cried, and had to leave early. The host and guests who remained tried in vain to convince Amy to change her ways.

Amy is a Yale Law professor and advocate of Chinese parenting methods. A recent piece she authored in the Wall Street Journal (1/8/11 Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior) explained how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful children.

Here are some things that Sophia and Lulu, her now tween daughters, have never been allowed to do:

attend a sleepover
have a playdate
be in a school play
complain about not being in a school play
watch tv or play computer games
get any grade less than an A
not be the number 1 student in any subject except gym or drama
play any instrument other than piano or violin
not play the piano or violin.
Whew!

Not only that, but Amy writes that Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, �Hey fatty � lose some weight.� She bemoans the fact that Western parents veil the weight issue by speaking about �health�; never mentioning �the f-word.� And still their children end up with eating disorders that require years of therapy to combat negative body images.

Related Article: The Entitled Child

When it comes to school, Amy again feels that Western parents fall short.

An A- brings praise, a B may bring praise or disapproval but never will a child be made to feel insecure by being called �stupid�, �worthless� or �a disgrace.�

Even if parents worry about their child�s skills, they will do so privately and may eventually speak to the principal about the teacher�s methods and the school�s curriculum.

What would Chinese parents do?

Chinese children never get a B. But if they would, there would be a �screaming, hair-tearing explosion.�
Chinese mothers would be horrified by an A-. Chinese children never get a B. But if they would, there would be a �screaming, hair-tearing explosion.� Then, the mother who feels devastated by her child�s failure would get hundreds of practice worksheets until the child moved up to an A.

There is no such thing as a child not doing well. If perfection is not achieved it must be that the child is not working hard enough. The solution is always punishing or shaming the child. Children are believed to be strong enough to take the shame and be better for it.

Amy concludes her article with proof of her parenting methods.

She tells a story that she believes reinforces her belief in Chinese-style coercion.

Lulu was about 7 and working on an incredibly difficult piano piece.

After one week of trying, Lulu announced that she was giving up. She stomped off and refused to return to the piano. Forced to return, she not only punched, thrashed and kicked, she also tore up the score. Amy pasted it back together and protected it in a plastic sheath. Lulu was threatened with �no lunch, no dinner, no x-mas, no Hannukkah (her father is Jewish), no birthday parties for 2, 3, 4, years.� She was called lazy, cowardly, self- indulgent and pathetic.

Lulu�s dad decided to get involved. He told his wife that he didn�t think the threats were helpful and maybe she just couldn�t do it.

Amy replied that Lulu�s sister Sophia was able to play the piece at this age.

When told that they were two different people, Amy rolled her eyes.

�Oh no, not this,� I said. �Everyone is special in their special own way,� I mimicked sarcastically. �Even losers are special in their own special way. Well don�t worry, you don�t have to lift a finger. I�m willing to put in as long as it takes, and I�m happy to be the one hated. And you can be the one they adore because you make them pancakes and take them to Yankee games.�

They worked at it all night, no permission granted even for a bathroom or water break. There was so much yelling, Amy lost her voice.

Amy concludes her piece triumphantly with the news that Lulu finally mastered the piece. She felt confident and played beautifully at her recital.

End of story.

But not in my book.

Sure there are too many times that we allow our children to give up. Of course we sometimes let our kids off too easily and try to shield their self-esteem. Anyone who has ever read my articles or attended my classes knows that I often speak about our raising a generation of entitled kids who are raised with an inflated sense of self. Parents who applaud and praise their children�s every act and do not hold them accountable teach kids to rely on egos instead of effort.

But in this entire article there has been no mention of character.

Related Article: Authority in Parenting

How do we define a successful child?

What are the values that I am trying to transmit to my children about who they are and who I hope they will one day grow up to be?

Can I call myself an accomplished parent if my child masters a piano piece while at the same time I have conveyed to my child that it�s okay to stomp on the heart of another?

Shaming a child may bring immediate results but what about the effects on one�s soul?
Calling a child �garbage� or �fatty� is mean. Shaming a child may bring immediate results but what about the effects on one�s soul? Embarrassing another human being goes against the dictates of our holy Torah. We believe that every person is created in the image of God, Himself. When you shame someone you are actually disrespecting the holiness that God placed within each one of us.

And what kind of parent will this child grow up to be? How will she speak to her own spouse and children?

At what price do we feel triumphant?

If I would have a conversation with Amy, I would share my own story about raising children successfully.

When my daughter, Shaindy, was in kindergarten, we were new to the neighborhood. I wanted my daughter to make friends with her classmates, so I asked her teacher for a class list. After going over the various names, we set up a play-date with Sora Leah.

The next day the little mini bus pulled up after school. The bus counselor wished me luck as both girls stepped down. The next three hours were a puzzle to me. Sora Leah said not one word. She sucked her thumb and had difficulty walking. She held onto Shaindy�s dress.

After Sora Leah was picked up, I called Shaindy into the kitchen.

�Is Sora Leah your friend, sweetie?� I asked.

�No, Mommy, Sora Leah doesn�t really have any friends,�

�Well, do you play together in school?� I wondered.

�No, Mommy, Sora Leah doesn�t play�.

I could not understand.

�Oh, Mommy,� Shaindy said sadly. �Every day the teacher calls out names of who is going to who after school. And every day Sora Leah cries because the teacher never calls her name. I just didn�t want her to cry anymore, Mommy.�

This little child looked up at me and I felt as if I had been touched by something indescribable; something pure and holy. Call it soul, spirit or heart of hearts. It really does not matter. Isn�t this the essence of who we strive to be � adult or child?

Today, Shaindy is a mother herself. She lives in Jerusalem and continues to reach out to fellow Jews and touching hungry souls.

We are here as parents to teach compassion, kindness and goodness. We are the greatest examples, our homes are our classrooms. Our goal is for each child to reach her potential. Not by calling her garbage nor through shame. But rather, through raising a child with soul.