Spinoff from the aliyah thread--- questions about groups

Someone suggested I make a spinoff.... I feel like ffbs know a lot of nuances about diffferent groups that we BTs don't get.

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Seriously--- I know I'm BT, but I've been frum for a while now and still am CLUELESS about all this.

What is DL?

How can a pre-law environment be "chareidi"? A "Chareidi" woman can work as a lawyer?

How is American BY different from Israeli BY?

Is a girl who went to BY automatically assumed to move on to seminary? Do any BY girls go to college? Or get jobs straight out of high school?

Does BY for high school automatically equal a certain path as an adult? Can't a BY girl choose to become modern Orthodox or Chassidishe or just plain exploring her path without being labelled as "off the derech"?

Thanks for indulging my curiosity....

DL = dati leumi. It is a form of MO, except when it becomes chardal (charedi dati leumi) but very different as a whole from American or European MO because it is necessarily leumi.

Chareidi in Israel is probably rarely a lawyer.

American BY is less strict.

see I didn't even understand that.

In America, MO means a thousand differerent things---for some, it means Shabbas, Kashrus and TH, but not necessarily skirts or hair coverings. For me and my (personal?) brand of MO it means that I use the internet and watch tv, but I do fully cover my hair and wear skirts-- my husband wears a black hat but wears colored shirts, etc. There's a huge spectrum of MO. But none of it could be considered "Chareidi". So DL in Israel is MO unless it's Chareidi?

Is there a "for dummies" book about all this stuff somewhere?

Last edited by Ruchel on Mon, Nov 29 2010, 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

I'm not sure how what I write is different, just shorter.

Except in attitude DL (as opposed to chardal) is a form of MO as opposed to ultra.

Maybe something is lost in translation. I posted an article about that way back and no one said the article was wrong... http://imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98511

I'm ffb and I don't know them either.

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TwinsMommy, Modern Orthodox used to be people who wanted to be religious plus live in "the real world" at the same time, within constraints of... Modern Orthodox halacha. These days, the lines between what is considered MO and what is Modern Chareidi are sometimes blurred. So, you can play around with that one. In Israel, an MO would be "dati moderni" = modern orthodox. This usually, but not always, goes along with being Dati Leumi = religious with a nationalistic bend. The people who believe that Israel is the beginning of Geula, who believe that living in Israel is a mitzva and who believe that settling the land is a mitzva. You have religious people from the full spectrum who can be describes as DL: from women wearing pants and sometime untzanua clothing and no headcovering, with men sporting little kippot, maybe no tzitzit and eating at places that may be questionable, to women wearing long skirt, sleeves, totally hair covered and the men bearded with huge kippot for whom Torah observance is there whole being. That is the DL spectrum. The binding factor is the beliefs I mentioned above.
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Last edited by chanchy123 on Mon, Nov 29 2010, 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ok, so I would like to elaborate a little bit on what Tamiri and Yesha said.
Dati Leumi = national religious. In practice it means a person who is an observant Jew and believes in Judaism as a national enterprise as well. This may or may not mean they say hallel on yom haatzmaut or believe that the State of Israel is the basis of Hashem's throne in the world (A Rav Kookism). It's hard to explain the nuances. Basically, being DL and recognizing the national aspects of Judaism means that being Jewish MUST include the secular realm and one must regard this secular realm. Therefore, many if not most DL people are also MO, in the sense that they believe that Judaism must incorporate modern life and in it's view of secular education and or culture. However, these definition do not always coincide, and not on every aspect.
As Tamiri said, the spectrum of DL is very wide, with Dati lite on one side and Chadal on the other (two kinds of chardal - the type which is ideologically Nationalist but in practice is closer to chareidi observance and the type that is moderate in observance and moderate in nationalism but socially chareidi).

Edit - also in Israel BY is a stream of education generally for Israeli Chareidi girls, very strict (think of threads you've read about mothers who drive, or wear denim, or have long shaitels, etc.)
In Israel, many if not most DL girls go to schools called Ulpanot who cater to the various streams of DL girls, from the very feminist egalitarian to the very chardal brand. Almost all teens will go to single s-x schools, with girls going to an ulpana or equivelant girls high school (if it is on one of the extreems they will likely call it a high school and not an ulpana) and the boys to a yeshiva high school.
So a girl who may be suited to BY in the US may be perfectly suited to a DL girls school here.
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Interesting, about chardal!

Don't the Sefardi black hatters reject going to the army? Chardal is pro the army. We had at least one chardal regular poster some time ago, living in Itzhar. On some aspects she was totally charedi, but she was also totally leumi.

A well known (or one that it happens that I know of) shul or school could make me understand quickly the thing. Sure Young Israel I know what it is.

About the DL "women wearing long skirt, sleeves, totally hair covered and the men bearded with huge kippot for whom Torah observance is there whole being.", do they send to the same schools as the lighter DLs? I thought chardal was created for a "stricter" DL lifestyle (again, Imamother knowledge). And then "Torani" was created to be somewhere in the middle?

And what about all the other labels in the link?

Posted: Mon, Nov 29 2010, 1:01 pm Post subject:

I would say Chardal means pretty much like chareidi, EXCEPT for their attitude to Zionism/ the State of Israel. So they are extremely makpid in all aspects of mitzva observance (including tznius), also with a great emphasis on learning Torah. Some Chardal high schools for boys are basically similar to chareidi yeshiva ketana (almost no secular studies), except they will learn more Zionist hashkafa and more hashkafa in general. They do Bagrut by learning the minimum intensively in the last grade or two. Some put off army to learn for several years in yeshivos like Merkaz Harav.

Their hashkafa also changes some halachic rulings (eg to do with going to the army, sherut leumi, settling the land etc) vis a vis chareidim.

DL, as Tamiri said, can run from dressing pretty much like someone non-frum/ small kippa, but keeping Shabbos and kashrus to being makpid something approaching chardal. However, there will not be as intense Torah study as chardal, kolel is for a purpose (to be a rav/dayan) if at all, more secular studies etc - for hashkafic reasons.
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Platinum Member Joined: Aug 12 2007 Posts: 20481

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I'm laughing at some of the definitions.

I think that one of my kids put it this way.

"Dati leumi always says hallel on Yom Ha'atzmaut only some say with a brocho and some don't.
Chardal women always look shleppy compared to charedi women with their clothing screaming either "very frum" or "little house on the prairie" compared to most Dati Leumi women" (they call them "dati shlep" around here)
All of them go to the army milechaschila. But while you won't find charedal girls ever going to the army there are dati leumi girls who go.
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