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marina

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 11:24 pm

here's the book section on piling on

I don't see what the big deal is about it. It's just basically giving a bunch of smaller punishments for one large infraction rather than one large punishment for the same thing. It's not a focus of his book at all, it is just a tip that works for some people.

I have used similar things even before I read his book.

For example, last year my 8 year old got into the habit of lying. At one point I had enough and told him that our trusting relationship had been broken and would be broken for 2 months unless he worked extra hard to earn it back in which case it would only be broken for one month. At first he thought this wasn't a punishment at all and laughed it off. But then over the next few weeks I treated him like I would treat a compulsive liar. Anytime he said his homework was done, his room was clean, etc., I didn't believe him and he had to wait until I checked, and I was very busy so he had to wait and wait. Any time he said he didn't start the fight with his sisters, I didn't believe him. Any time he said he was only on the computer for X amount of time, I didn't believe him. Anytime he said that he would be back by 5 from playing at his friend's house, I didn't believe him. And so, his life became very miserable, very quickly. He couldn't have the computer time he wanted, he couldn't go to his friends' houses when he wanted, he was never believed about anything. It really cramped his style.

I was very pleasant each time and very sympathetic and explained over and over that sadly, our trusting relationship has been broken and it takes a while to earn trust back. I never yelled, not once, never even got angry. At the end of the time period, he had learned his lesson and lying was virtually gone. He can now tell the truth even when he clearly does not want to. Just tonight I asked him if he took a shower this morning ( he hates them), he said yes and then looked up quickly and said, "I mean, uh, no."

That is an example of piling on, I don't know what your problem is with it.

JRKmommy

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 12:09 am

That actually sounds like a logical consequence.

You lie, people don't trust that you are telling the truth.

Kayza

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 1:09 am

frumluv wrote:

Thanks for the book recommendations Marina & Daisy. My problems w/ my 7 yr old is that he talks back & likes to negotiate, all the time. I have the tendancy yell a lot, so I am hoping to learn some new techniques.

Rosemond has a lot to offer, but keep in mind that he is very Christian. Another book for parents who get into the negotiating trap is Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries by Robert J. Mac Kenzie

shalhevet

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 5:01 am

marina wrote:

For example, last year my 8 year old got into the habit of lying. At one point I had enough and told him that our trusting relationship had been broken and would be broken for 2 months unless he worked extra hard to earn it back in which case it would only be broken for one month. At first he thought this wasn't a punishment at all and laughed it off. But then over the next few weeks I treated him like I would treat a compulsive liar. Anytime he said his homework was done, his room was clean, etc., I didn't believe him and he had to wait until I checked, and I was very busy so he had to wait and wait. Any time he said he didn't start the fight with his sisters, I didn't believe him. Any time he said he was only on the computer for X amount of time, I didn't believe him. Anytime he said that he would be back by 5 from playing at his friend's house, I didn't believe him. And so, his life became very miserable, very quickly. He couldn't have the computer time he wanted, he couldn't go to his friends' houses when he wanted, he was never believed about anything. It really cramped his style.

I was very pleasant each time and very sympathetic and explained over and over that sadly, our trusting relationship has been broken and it takes a while to earn trust back. I never yelled, not once, never even got angry. At the end of the time period, he had learned his lesson and lying was virtually gone. He can now tell the truth even when he clearly does not want to. Just tonight I asked him if he took a shower this morning ( he hates them), he said yes and then looked up quickly and said, "I mean, uh, no."

That is an example of piling on, I don't know what your problem is with it.

I find that absolutely horrifying, sorry.

We don't tell our children they are liars and we don't trust them. I'm glad it worked for you, but for many children it could turn them into compulsive liars - after all, they are liars, so they don't tell the truth.

Children usually lie:
1. If they have parents who role model lying.
2. If their parents/ teachers are overstrict and so they are terrified of the punishment for telling the truth.
3. Some kids just have a greater yetzer hara for it, like any bad midda.

If I am pretty sure a child has lied I will assure them they won't get punished for what they did, and force them to admit it, even to the point of promising a reward for telling the truth.

Tamiri

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 5:40 am

I am going to go with Shalhevet this one time. I hope that your son doesn't just get better at lying Sad

FWIW, an 8 yo boy is STILL A BABY. He does need to know right from wrong, but the method to teach him seems a bit harsh. And I am all for harsh, but not with a little boy like that. And also, the word lying... not a good one.

Grace

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 8:20 am

Quote:

I don't equate modern parenting to overpermissiveness. I equate modern parenting to parents who are constantly anxious about their parenting and whether they are good enough. So many threads on this website are devoted to Am I a Horrible Mother

The above is how I feel most of the time.

My friends and fellow mothers mostly look aghast to see me put my 2yr old child in time out, even though my gut tells me im doing the right thing and certainly jo jo supernanny would be giving me a real slap on the back - my parenting is often executed with this irritating, irksome nudging feeling that perhaps what im doing is really detrimental to my child's flourishing development. This is even after she has grabbed the cat, swung her around the room by her tail, poked its eyes and kicked the terrorized cat in the gut and for good measure kicked the poor cats food over so it is no longer....

Ruchel

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 8:31 am

Yeah, nowadays in some circles, punishing is abusing. There aren't many around here, but they exist.

I'm more likely to ask for chinuch advice to a conservative type, be it Xtian, Muslim, or any ethnic type, than to a ubertolerant (as long as your values are his...) left winger, even if he happens to be shomer mitzvos.

Yes, the most pleasant kids and teens and young adults I know come from strict families (not crazy strict or unfair). I generally don't like the outcome of permissive parenting, except for those who are baale middos anyway...
Yes, seeing what happens in less strict circles is among what made me frummer, just to escape this type of surroundings and schools for my future children. "I send my kids to XYZ, it's more relaxed!", but when they're teens, the XYZ kids make their teachers cry (and I'm talking of an Orthodox school) and the principal tells me he can only hire someone with "20 yrs of experience" because they are demonic.

That said, Marina, I received the book today, opened it randomly, and I was HORRIFIED by what I read about the 4 yr old locked for days in the toilets. Even in my circles where crying abuse is ridiculed, this is abuse...

c.c.cookie

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 8:35 am

I agree with Ruchel. I didn't read the book, so I can be wrong, but it sounds a tad TOO strict, even to me - and I'm pro punishing when needed. What's this about a 4 yr. old locked in the bathroom? That sounds a bit much imho.

Grace

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 8:51 am

Quote:

f I am pretty sure a child has lied I will assure them they won't get punished for what they did, and force them to admit it, even to the point of promising a reward for telling the truth.

To encourage good and honest behaviour via bribery shock

THAT is horrifying.
Surely we must teach our children to do the right thing because thats the right thing and not because there will be a reward for it at the end.

shalhevet

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 8:54 am

I haven't seen the book, so I'm only going by what's written here. I am also greatly in favour of parental authority and chinuch, but that's not at all what this book sounds like. It doesn't sound like chinuch at all, but more like military discipline. Chinuch is to teach your child not to lie, to behave with respect etc, not to behave as you'd like because he's petrified what you will do to him otherwise (and I also think oversevere punishment can lead to lying, stealing, cheating etc from fear of consequences).

It sounds to me that this book is equally populist - a generation of overpermissive parents who are scared of their own children, give in to most of their whims because they have no idea how to say no, spoil them with piles of material goods etc are desperately seeking a solution. So this book will sell. But really it's just a different way of shirking chinuch responsibilities and not bothering to spend your time with your child (when he whines you lock him in the toilet, instead of giving him that second chocolate bar) instead of investing time and thought into chinuch.

shalhevet

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 8:56 am

Grace wrote:

Quote:

f I am pretty sure a child has lied I will assure them they won't get punished for what they did, and force them to admit it, even to the point of promising a reward for telling the truth.

To encourage good and honest behaviour via bribery shock

THAT is horrifying.
Surely we must teach our children to do the right thing because thats the right thing and not because there will be a reward for it at the end.

I'm very impressed that your children are natural tzaddikim and are happy to do the right thing just because it's the right thing. My kids are just human and need rewards (sometimes) to reinforce good behaviour.

BTW, just curious, but how old are your children?

Hatemywig

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 9:13 am

I just read a couple of pages from the 'Piling On' chapter, I must admit, I'm not easily shocked or horrified, but here I truly am.

I can't figure out a way to copy-paste, so I'll briefly give my opinion, as a matter of fact, very briefly:

This method sounds almost spiteful!

marina

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 9:41 am

Parentin is never about one method that works for each family or each child. It is all about having enough tools in your tool box to find the right strategy and not to use the same thing every time.

That means that modeling honest behavior and explaining how lying is wrong will work for some kids and not for others. It means bribing or rewarding will work for some kids and not others. It means time outs will work for some kids and not others. You need to know your child and not be afraid of trying something new.

Shalhevet, I have four kids and only one has had a problem with lying ( or as we say "not telling the whole truth") that I felt a need to correct. The other kids did fine without any formal discipline in this area. But for the one child who was getting into a very bad habit (despite all my explanations and role modeling and never using the word lying and punishing less for telling the truth, etc) I am glad that I thought of this idea b/c it worked.

And that's my point. If you are all using strategies that work for you, if your children do not have behavior issues that concern you, good for you! You have found what works for your family and that is fantastic. But some parents are still struggling with some children, despite their best efforts and despite all the great parenting books and classes that they have taken. Dina Freedman doesn't work for everyone. 1-2-3 doesn't work for everyone. How to Talk so Your Kids will Listen doesn't work for everyone. Rosemond doesn't work for everyone. No one system works for everyone.

I do not agree with everything Rosemond writes. Specifically, I do not share his opinions on ADHD and other disabilities and I did not like that his consequences were pretty much uniform- early bed time or grounding. But there are quite a few things that he wrote and suggested that I found useful. Specifically that harsh consequences, when delivered with the right attitude and affection, will not cripple your child but rather benefit them.

JRKmommy

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 11:25 am

Again, what I really like other parenting books such as To Kindle and Soul and Raising Roses Among the Thorns is the holistic approach that they take, looking at all elements of discipline is it's broadest sense of teaching children to be good people, as opposed to a simple focus on immediate obedience. [I read secular books all the time, but honestly found that Jewish parenting books gave the best overall advice, to the point that I frequently paraphrased these books when giving discipline advice to non-Jews. I'd actually love to write a more secular version of these books, aimed at a general audience, although the authors would no doubt feel that something valuable would be lost in the process.]

Both books take from Rabbi Wolbe the idea that discipline involves both "planting and building".

"Planting" is the positive parenting piece. It is about being a good role model, having a home and environment that demonstrate good moral values, having a strong loving relationship with your child and otherwise planting the seeds that will naturally grow to encourage your child to want to be good and do the right thing.

"Building" is more directed discipline. It is about setting rules and limits which are enforced, and providing structure for children.

Both elements are necessary.

Within the "building" element, positive reinforcement and good use of routines and structures will go a long way. However, there are times that a child will challenge a limit or won't respond to positive reinforcement, and it will be an issue that it important for the family and/or for the long-term moral development of the child, so a more negative consequence is needed. THAT is where books with discipline suggestions could possibly come in. I do agree that when parents genuinely feel the need to assert their authority even if the child is resistant, it needs to be done swiftly and decisvely and make it clear that the parent is in charge. Being wishy-washy does a child no favors. In fact, it actually TRAINS them to throw tantrums, talk back, ignore parents, burst into tears, etc. because these are behaviors that get rewarded.

That said, I believe that even the firmest, strictest discipline must still be respectful. Shalhavet does have a point about not labelling a child. Rosemond is very much a CHRISTIAN parenting writer, who believes that we are all born with a sinful nature. This is what he has to say about that:

http://www.beliefnet.com/Love-......aspx

That's not the Jewish view. We believe that everyone has a yetzer hara (temptation to do things that may be wrong), but that doesn't define us. It isn't the essence of our being, and our G-d-given souls, at their core, are essentially good. Discipline, in Jewish terms, isn't about violently stamping out an inherently sinful nature, but is a technical matter of learning to control the yetzer hara so that the person's true soul is free to shine through and connect to Hashem.

So, getting back down to earth, what does that mean?

Among other things, avoiding negative labels. It seems like a little thing, but it has a huge impact. So, in the lying example, avoid actually calling a child a liar. Instead, say that it is important to be honest. Mom can say simply that sometimes we are tempted not to be completely honest, so if this happens she'll need to check everything until the child shows that they can be trusted resist this temptation and develop a reputation for always being honest.

The actions may look the same. There may be the same need to prove and check everything until trust is established. The difference is the focus - instead of repeating liar and lying, we are repeating the words honest and honesty. For practical discipline strategies, I also found Sara Chana Radcliffe's book, Raising Your Kids Without Raising Your Voice, to be good. I especially like what she has to say about teaching kids to talk respectfully to parents (asking questions instead of issuing demands or contradicting, using a pleasant tone of voice).

sneakermom

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 11:46 am

I just personally don't see why harsh punishments are necessary. Especially when there are much more effective ways of reaching children and getting them to develop good habits, and morals.

I have seen many beautiful families, where the kids are respectful, kind, warm and compassionate and there was no need ever for being, overly harsh. Even when one does punish a child, the attitude of the parent is paramount to the way the child will experience it. To punish on top of punish teaches the child that they must distance themselves from the parent because the parent is hurting them.

And I do absolutely believe in discipline, but this kind of style scares the living **** out of me. My mother would have been gungo about a book like this and she would have used it to legitimize her abusive behavior.

And I agree the Jewish approach is to view the child as having a good soul, who needs to be trained to overcome the yetzer hara.

And Marina, the fact that only your son has a lying problem doesn't make me feel better about it. Because the fact is my mother would "see" different things in different kids, and act out accordingly. It was her projection. You were lucky if you got a good one. Obviously you are not my mother, but we all see different things in different kids...it's how they tick us off.

And I'm not surprised this author has a big following. A lot of people love to follow someone with absolute beliefs and dramatic results. Never realizing that the author probably has a major personality disorder IMO. I know a therapist by the way, who constantly feels that children have too much power. I won't tell you what her kids look like (more dead than alive) but she is absolutely projecting her own need to dis empower kids onto others, and teaching other parents how to do it. And they learn, thinking its the best thing for their kids.

TzenaRena

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 12:59 pm

and here I thought I was done with parenting courses and books. But this sounds too interesting to pass up. especially that it comes Marina recommended. Wink

Without having read through this entire thread, I think there may be some good advice aside from the overly harsh stuff; maybe after YT I could look into it, although it's probably for the younger set . (BH my kids are not bratty, only ... teenagers. LOL

)

JRKmommy

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 1:53 pm

Kids are all different. I realize that while some kids (like my eldest) really need nothing but lots of love and can seem crushed by mild disapproval, others are just not wired that way. So yes, I do agree with Marina that parents need to know that there are things that they can do to take charge when it is warranted.

That said, I just can't endorse a book that refers to a toddler as "Devil Spawn of Satan". Maybe that's appropriate in a blog post from a frustrated mom trying to be funny, but I find it harder to laugh when I know that this guy literally believes that children are born as little sinners. I'm not comfortable with that view being in a parenting book marketed to the general public.

saw50st8

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 2:20 pm

Am I the only one who thinks Marina's approach was a decent idea?

He had shown himself to not being honest (and I assume it wasn't a one time thing but more chronic). So Marina showed him the consequence of being dishonest - not being trusted. I think that's actually a very natural response.

Tamiri

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 2:23 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Theoretically. But two months is a very long time. And, although I am not one of those who goes for the "self-esteem" fad that's been around for a while, I can't imagine it's very good to remind a child of that age, over and over (and over and over) again, for a month or two running, of his transgression. That's just my opinion. Imagine being in that's child's place....

saw50st8

Thu, Sep 16 2010, 2:26 pm

Tamiri wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Maybe its a long time. I don't know if I would have done it that long (maybe started with 1 week or something). The basis is there though - if you don't tell the truth, no one will beleive you.

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