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marina

Fri, Sep 03 2010, 10:29 am

So I have a friend who has always had trouble with her horribly-behaved kids. They bit strangers, they pinched, they blatantly disobeyed, they laughed when she patched them. She tried every parenting book, course, you name it, she did it.

She finally got a parenting program that worked and she emailed me about it. I ran out and bought the book because I thought- if it can cure her kids, I gotta read it!

And so... here's the book.

It worked for my kids too. My kids are relatively well behaved but we were having problems with whining and talking back and sibling fighting. It took one week for them to get their act together after I started. Now, I am pleased to say, they no longer talk back and fighting is really minimal. All I have to say is "are you fighting?" and they immediately stop.

In case you don't want to go buy the book, here's a little summary. You basically have to be very strict with your kids. Calm, but very severe (but legal) punishments. No rewards. Serious punishment is basically early bedtime or grounding. It is used for even minor infractions, with a warning system. Some kids in his book have been grounded for up to six months before they changed their ways.

For example, my nine year old has a chart and if he does one of his chart behaviors (disrespect, fighting, not following directions first time given) he gets a strike. After three strikes, he misses dessert. Next he loses all screen time and last, he is grounded for the rest of the day. The first week I grounded him by 9:30 am. Now he is angelic. Last night I grounded my 12 year old for whining and complaining. I took away her cell phone and she stays in her room for 2 days except for school. There's also no discussions or second chances.

It is great. They literally changed over one week. I highly recommend this book and parenting approach to all of you. Of course, those of you who don't have problems with your kids or think that each child is a star-seed indigo snowflake will probably not need to read this post Smile

No, my kids are not traumatized nor have I squelched their lovely little personalities. They just know that if they do not start their sentences with " I mean no disrespect, mommy," they risk missing dessert or staying in their room for the rest of the day.

Disclaimer: I do not agree with everything he says in the book and many things are controversial and will certainly anger many people. But it is an excellent resource.

amother

Fri, Sep 03 2010, 11:11 am

what a brave soul, to post this! auhtority is not in fashion these days...
Sounds interesting, I'll check it.

daisy

Fri, Sep 03 2010, 11:53 am

thanks! I'm going to reserve this at the library. I am addicted to parenting books.

Currently I am reading this one: http://www.amazon.com/No-Kids-.....r=1-3

and this one: http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Mak.....r=1-1

and this one: http://www.amazon.com/Raising-.....r=8-6

All good. But I still yell.

anon

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 12:04 pm

oy va voy, vey iz mir

JRKmommy

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 12:49 pm

Is the message much different from books like 1-2-3 Magic or the Supernanny series?

Some of that is actually quite similar to my parenting approach. Walk softly and carry a big stick (not literally!). My kids know that daddy may yell or threaten, but mommy will calmly say something AND MEAN IT.

I think these books are helpful for parents who are basically good, but lack specific skills in actually enforcing effective discipline.

I get more concerned about parents who may see it as an answer to everything. Keep in mind - I've worked with a LOT of parents with problems. A question of disrespect in your house would probably be different from a question of disrespect in a house where the 12 yr old is criticizing the mom for being drunk, again, and refusing to listen to mom's live-in partner of the moment, who responds by cussing her out. Some of the parenting books that I like (such as Raising Roses Among the Thorns or To Kindle a Soul) take a more holistic approach, acknowledging the importance of maintaining authority where necessary, but also talk about the importance of role modelling, love and respect, etc.

That said, I highly agree that talking too much in the face of defiance is a mistake. Kids actually thrive in an environment with structure and predictable consequences.

PinkFridge

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 1:19 pm

"star seed indigo snowflake"
I get what you mean from the context, but what in the world does this mean? How would one understand this if it stood alone?

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 6:25 am

Does it still work by you, Marina?

anon

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 8:49 am

It's interesting how people think that if something "works" in the short-term, it means that it must be a good parenting method.

The methods described in the book sounds so illogical and desperate...yet it "works", so it's good?

As parents, we have the power to scare our children into doing just about anything. We're strong and we can choose to be scary and therefore our punishments (not consequences, please don't insult the brilliance of consequences by calling these methods consequences) can "work". But I have yet to see how it's a good parenting method. Because in my book, short-term "working" does not equal "good".

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 8:59 am

I don't believe in the whole "don't make it a punishment but a consequence" ideology. It's weird to me. Punishing your child is a consequence. Allowing a (bad) consequence to happen is a punishment.

What I see is that "indigo star seed snowflake" parenting does NOT work on the long term. I generally find the outcome of such parenting unable to function in society (until real life kicks in and teaches them, generally very harshly). And as teen? their own parents come to dislike them.

Now, if I could kick myself into having a bit more authority on mine, that would be a good start. But this no discipline parenting is not doing any good to children.

anon

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:07 am

consequences = no discipline? Scratching Head

marina

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:09 am

anon wrote:

The whole point is that it works in the long-term, not the short term. I don't know where you got short term from.

The whole point of the book is not to scare children but to help them learn to obey authority. I personally like my kids to challenge authority, but that approach doesn't really do them any favors in real life, like school and jobs, etc.

And yes, the system still works for us. My kids are not perfect, but they are much more well-behaved, there is a lot less sibling fighting and whining and there is virtually no chutzpah at all. They are still happy and well-adjusted, they are still the same funny, sensitive, articulate, intelligent children they were before.

But maybe you're right and in the "long-run" they will be sending me therapy bills because their mommy grounded them a few times for being disrespectful and they had to *gasp*, sit in their room and read books and not play on the computer for a few days out of their lives. But I doubt it, more likely they will send me thank you letters for raising them to be decent human beings.

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:11 am

anon wrote:

consequences = no discipline? Scratching Head

Consequences = punishments but not taking responsibility and preferring not saying you're the mean punishing mom

hannah95

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:12 am

I can't see how you can parent without some kind of authority. Specially in this day and age, where kids are made to be the center of attention, of every little things, I've seen toddlers ruling an entire family. I'm no saying you should not care for your children, don't twist my world, but I thing it actually helps if you have a stong parent you can trust, and trust his judgement.

marina

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:15 am

It doesn't make a difference if you call it punishment or consequence. The only real difference is that consequence implies that it is natural, consistent result from the child's behavior whereas punishment is something the adult chooses to impose or not. So basically if you are super-consistent, it becomes a consequence, if you are random and arbitrary, it is a punishment.

Tamiri

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:16 am

Marina, good for you for trying! I hope it makes your life easier (which well-behaved children tend to do).

marina

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:18 am

Thanks Tamiri! It has made things a lot less stressful.

I have difficulty with consistency, so I think the method would work better if I actually remembered to check off the boxes when I say I am doing so, etc. Sometimes I am still a softie and give in, but I'm working on it !

Tamiri

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:20 am

marina wrote:

I hope it works for you. In my book, that's too much work for the parents, who are then - in a roundabout way - taking some of the responsibility for their children's good behavior.

marina

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:22 am

I know. For the older kids, I have them check off their boxes themselves.

anon

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:24 am

Ruchel wrote:

anon wrote:

consequences = no discipline? Scratching Head

Consequences = punishments but not taking responsibility and preferring not saying you're the mean punishing mom

Consequences are logical or natural punishments. There is a clear rationale to them, it makes sense, it's related to the misbehavior. It's an intelligent and non-controlling way of disciplining.

natural consequences: 1) If you don't eat now, then you'll be hungry later (and no, there will be no dinner after bedtime)

logical consequences: 1) If you run away from me outside, then we will have to go inside the house right away. I'm sorry that you still want to play outside, I'm sure tomorrow you'lll make a better choice

2) If you aren't ready for bed by 7pm, then you will lose out on our special (mommy-child) bedtime fun together as it will be too late for that.

3) If you hit your little sister, then you will need to go to your room to be in a safe place where you can't hurt anyone.

And so on and so forth...

Why is it so much better than traditional punishments?

The parents aren't being controlling...they are TEACHING that in this life, good things happen when you make good choices and bad things happen when you make bad choices. You can only teach that when the "punishments" are logical and related to the misbehavior. It teaches SELF-discipline. After all, there won't be someone grounding them and taking away their dessert forever.

Hence, one example of short-term versus long-term.

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 15 2010, 9:26 am

In life, things can have very weird effects/consequences... and halevai good choices led only to good things and bad choices to bad things...

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