Would you do the bris?

Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 7:06 pm Post subject: Would you do the bris?

A woman called a mohel and asked him to do a bris on her son. She mentioned that the baby's father was not Jewish and was opposed to his son having a bris, but agreed on condition that after the bris he would take the baby to church and have him baptized.

Would you do the bris under those conditions?

Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 7:16 pm Post subject:

yes, because the boy will still be jewish despite the baptism. if he has any hope of a jewish future itll start w/ a bris.
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 7:44 pm Post subject:

I think the halacha would be to yes do the bris because in that circumstance beis din or the kehilla is mechuyav to mahl the kid. He doesn't have a [jewish] father. You really can't control what the patrents will do to him afterward but a kosher bris is a good start.
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Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 7:05 am Post subject:

I also would have done the bris under those circumstances, but the mohel that was called asked a shaila and was told he cannot do it. He was pretty surprised at the answer and asked other poskim, pretty much going up the hierarchy till he got to gedolei haposkim in the US and EY and he was told by all of them he should not do the bris. Interesting, eh?

Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 7:14 am Post subject: re: Would you do the bris?

Unless it was not quite as you posted.. if he said " if you dont do the Brit, then I wont do the baptism.."

Maybe the Rabanim saw it as a way to avoid Baptism.

If he was going to be baptised anyway - then why not do the Brit as a kosher Brit, he is a Jewish baby.
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Silver Member Joined: Nov 06 2009 Posts: 596

Could there have been more going on than this one case? Perhaps it would have been seen to set some kind of problematic precedent?

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Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 8:32 am Post subject:

Were these Jews for Cheeses (aka messiantics) people ? or regular xtians ?

Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 8:43 am Post subject:

The father was a mainstream Christian and the baptism was conditioned on the child having a bris, I.e. no bris, no baptism.

The psak was that baptism is shmad, even if the child is not consenting to it (could the mother be considered to be consenting to it by making the bris?) and making a bris would be causing the child to undergo shmad.

Our Shabbos guest added that no one here has a chiyuv to give this child a bris - the mother is not obligated because it's the father's chiyuv, the father is not obligated because he's a gentile and the child is not obligated because he's a minor.

Even if there would be a chiyuv, would it override the issur of shmad, which is yehareg ve'al yaavor?

Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 8:44 am Post subject:

JC, baptism does mean something, just as bowing down to idols means something, even if you don't believe in them. Why did all those Jews die through the ages for refusing to kiss the cross?

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Diamond Member Joined: Nov 12 2005 Posts: 2715

So this child, if he decides he wants to live a Jewish life, will have to have a bris as an adult? Ugh. Obviously it's a complicated situation, but I would imagine this greatly reduces of him choosing Judaism later on, especially if this is the first association he has with it.

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 01 2009 Posts: 8258

I'm not sure.

I'm not very pro-Bris anyway (even though we did for both my sons because I don't view it as a choice). If I could avoid giving my son a bris, I would do it. But then again, when he turns 13 he will be obligated to do it himself.

One more reason to not sleep with a non-Jew.

Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 10:34 am Post subject: Re: re: Would you do the bris?

Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 10:37 am Post subject:

What does that mean, you're not very pro-bris anyway??? What a strange thing to say for a frum woman.
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Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 10:42 am Post subject:

Yes!
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There is something very wrong with this story. It's definitely missing some very vital parts...

Posted: Mon, Feb 08 2010, 11:00 am Post subject: re: Would you do the bris?

How can someone say they are not pro bris!! never even thought about that when I had my boys. not only is it a mitzva, but even non jewish familes do it now for healt reasons

Platinum Member Joined: Nov 01 2009 Posts: 8258

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