DD comes to the Shabbos table in nightgown, buttons open....

When we dont have guests, DD comes to the Shabbos table in nightgown, buttons open. She also answers DH with Shut Up among other things, at the Shabbos table and otherwise. We've tried more than one therapist, but DH lets everything slide, with the answer to me "Be happy that... it could be worse".

With my being happy that B"H no one in my family is deathly ill... his attitude of "Ignore, because if you react you're only making it worse" (she yells back and blames us for whatever is bothering her) is making me hate being at home. I hate sitting at my own Shabbos table when we dont have guests, which is quite often.

Imamothers, Do not mention therapists, because as soon as we are no longer seeing the therapist, he reverts to the IGNORE approach. DH would possibly try to implement techniques that have worked for others, if I insist.

Please help.

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 12 2005 Posts: 2715

How old is DD? How long has she been doing this?

Platinum Member Joined: May 13 2007 Posts: 8153

Perhaps the solution would be to invite guests for every shabbos meal for a few months and hopefully that will make your daughter break this habit of coming to the meal undressed.

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 12 2005 Posts: 2715

My take on it: this is completely unacceptable. If you've tried reasoning, and explaining to her that you're happy to listen and discuss what's bothering here, and so on, I'd try a heavier hand. If this has been happening for a while, it may take a jolt to get her attention, but IMO that would work better than trying to gradually impose standards that have fallen by the wayside.

Announce that dinner will be served to family members who are appropriately dressed and who behave acceptably towards everyone there, and especially her parents. And then follow through. She's wearing a nightgown? She may sit quietly in her room for the evening, or she may change into something appropriate and join the family. If she responds to this with yelling or swearing, take away a privilege; if you don't want to punish her over Shabbat, then forbid her from some privilege or social activity in the week that follows. The tznius aspect strikes me as less of a problem than the disrespect for you, and ruining the family's Shabbat dinner.

You could try talking about finding her a nice shabbos robe, if what she wants is the comfort of a nightgown, and find one that she likes, that is modest and appropriate for Shabbat dinner. It doesn't sound like this is the issue, though; it seems to be about defiance and rebellion, and while I am very much in favor of helping children to get things off their chests, there is no room for that level of disrespect or rudeness. She's old enough that a) she'll understand, if she's not allowed to use the phone for the week, that it's a punishment for her behavior Friday night (a younger child might not) and b) if you make the consequences of unacceptable behavior worse than whatever "pleasure" she gets from it, she'll get the point.

I also believe that children are actually happier and more secure when they know that there are boundaries and that they are enforced, however much they might chafe against it. The message that you can behave however you please with no consequences can be frightening.

Silver Member Joined: Sep 23 2007 Posts: 504

Its probably so hard for you, because on the one hand you want to be able to take the firm approach and tell her dont come to the table if you arent dressed properly, but on the other hand your happy she is coming to the table at all, its a sticky situation. Maybe just approach her like an adult, and say I know your comfortable this way but is there a way that maybe just for friday night (start small) that maybe she can wear a sweatshirt and skirt or if she insists on pajamas something a little more covered up....

IMO she's doing it because of the differences in the parenting between you and your husband. Kids like to get a rise out of their parents. She knows that she's hitting you below the belt because it means so much to you, yet your husband doesn't care. You don't need therapy for this, but perhaps telling your husband that even though he personally doesn't care about this, you're asking him to do it out of respect for your wishes. It is totally unacceptable. She's testing her limits and as of now, there are no limits.
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Platinum Member Joined: Mar 07 2007 Posts: 10429

sounds as if dd is testing her limits. Lay down the law: this is how we dress for the table, period. Restaurants do it all the time: No shoes, no shirt, no service.

She may gripe, she may yell, if she doesn't want to comply, she doesn't have to eat, but she'll know you mean business.

No one here agrees with the IGNORE approach? (I certainly don't).

DH is scared of her outbursts.

Platinum Member Joined: Mar 07 2007 Posts: 10429

Tell DH dont be scared of his own kid. Thats what SHE WANTS. Its a manipulation thing. She can screm loud, so he get's scared.

I heard a story that one of my sister in laws ONCE tried to come to the SHabbos table dressed in pajamas at age 14. My father in law got up, cleared the table and said he was going to now go find a shabbos meal where people respect each other. He got the younger kids their coats, told my mother in law and the older ones to get dressed (apparently they were wearing Shabbos robes) and they left my sister in law by herself. She never did it again.

PS I am also adding to this while my husbands family is VERY VERY frum, inside the house my father in law had no problems with pajama pants for his daughter and granddaughters. So whatever she was wearing for pajamas must have been REALLY REALLY bad.

Tell DH dont be scared of his own kid. Thats what SHE WANTS. Its a manipulation thing. She can screm loud, so he get's scared.

I heard a story that one of my sister in laws ONCE tried to come to the SHabbos table dressed in pajamas at age 14. My father in law got up, cleared the table and said he was going to now go find a shabbos meal where people respect each other. He got the younger kids their coats, told my mother in law and the older ones to get dressed (apparently they were wearing Shabbos robes) and they left my sister in law by herself. She never did it again.

PS I am also adding to this while my husbands family is VERY VERY frum, inside the house my father in law had no problems with pajama pants for his daughter and granddaughters. So whatever she was wearing for pajamas must have been REALLY REALLY bad.

Tell DH dont be scared of his own kid. Thats what SHE WANTS. Its a manipulation thing. She can screm loud, so he get's scared.

I heard a story that one of my sister in laws ONCE tried to come to the SHabbos table dressed in pajamas at age 14. My father in law got up, cleared the table and said he was going to now go find a shabbos meal where people respect each other. He got the younger kids their coats, told my mother in law and the older ones to get dressed (apparently they were wearing Shabbos robes) and they left my sister in law by herself. She never did it again.

PS I am also adding to this while my husbands family is VERY VERY frum, inside the house my father in law had no problems with pajama pants for his daughter and granddaughters. So whatever she was wearing for pajamas must have been REALLY REALLY bad.

Gold Member Joined: Nov 17 2009 Posts: 1389

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 12 2005 Posts: 2715

Teens can make life miserable. But often, harping on things can make them worse. If you attempt to take away a privilege, certain teens will be even more determined and make your life even more miserable. What are you prepared to do, throw her out into the street? Be smart and ignore, if she is very strong willed. This is the way she shows rebellion, by wearing a nightgown at the Shabbos table? It's pretty offensive. But she is at a Shabbos table. In her parents' home. It could be worse.

As far as this exact situation, the closest I've come is one teenage daughter once coming to the Shabbos table in sweatpants - which we ignored - and she never did it again. On the other hand, one teenage son rebelled in much more determined ways. Ignoring was the best of any of the inadequate ways to make life pleasant. (There were no adequate ways, and yes, we had lots of guidance.)
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Posted: Sat, Feb 13 2010, 4:11 pm Post subject:

OP, what do you wear to the Shabbos table when there are no guests? Do you dress up?

In our house there is a rule that you come to the Shabbos table fully dressed in Shabbos clothes, including shoes and socks, or you don't come.

I would just set her a place in the kitchen and tell her only those appropriately dressed can be at the table - but you have to apply this rule to everyone (except babies) so that it's not a personal attack.
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Teens search for limits. It's for their own good and they know it although most won't acknowledge it. If her own dad is afraid of her, who will protect her?? it must be very very frightening inside.

(I knew of a girl who would come to the shabbes table with her polish and start doing her nails. In a shtark chassidish family where polish wasn't "done" to begin with! the parents were becoming crazy. This was an adult child but I assume it didn't start suddenly one day with something so bad)
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