Son in crisis-Bullies

octopus

Tue, Feb 09 2010, 7:50 pm

marina wrote:

GR wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't under the impression that victims of bullying have Abused Wife Syndrome.

There is some interesting research out there on how girls in bullying relationships (relational aggression) in elementary and secondary schools may tend to become victims of domestic violence in their marriages.

I thought that girls and boys bully in a different ways, with girls tending to be more passive aggressive.

imasinger

Tue, Feb 09 2010, 7:55 pm

There are a few different trains of thought on this thread. There's the question about what to do with the school, and a question about what to do with the child.

Hindsight is 20-20, but I have to wonder -- if you say this has been going on for years, but has only recently escalated, then shouldn't you have been starting to address this years ago? I can understand why you and he would be reluctant to move him so close to graduation and high school acceptance, but you might want to make a list of your concerns, and then prioritize your list and see where it leads you.

In terms of counseling, think of it this way. If he, ch"v, broke his leg, would you think twice about taking him for X-rays and a cast? He has been emotionally injured, and it would be the appropriate parental decision to provide him with a good counselor to help him heal. Yes, the bullies may very well benefit from counseling as well, but that's not something you need to focus on.

Now, about the school. The normal procedure when one has a problem is to complain to the rebbe first, then, if not appropriate action, the menahel, then the school board. It is wise to always put your concerns in writing from the beginning, being sure to document dates, times, actions (both of the boys, and of your meetings). If you haven't put things in writing, you may want to start doing it right away.

Here is a link to get you started in finding out about New York state laws about bullying:
http://www.stopbullyingnow.hrs.....6.pdf

Hatzlacha!

ChanaRochel

Tue, Feb 09 2010, 7:57 pm

amother wrote:

To the mother who was concerned about this kid criminally injuring another kid through karate, that is crazy. This is obviously not the most coordinated child. He has gotten his braces broken and chairs thrown at him. Cops don't pick up kids and imprison them for schoolyard fights.

I beg to differ, but my dh would say, momunaf-shuch (is that how its spelled), if he is so uncoordinated, then why have learn martial arts and encourage him to use it, on the other hand, just such a child has a breaking point that could be very dangerous..

amother

Tue, Feb 09 2010, 8:04 pm

New Amother Here:
My dd a second grader is also having bullying issues. Lots of kids start up with her, but 2 kids are physically starting up with her. They are kicking and pushing her.
1. First I spoke to the teacher. she claims she doesn't see it happening. it always happens when she is not in the class.
2. Then I went to the principal. The first time I went to her was 3-4 months ago. I let her know that kids were starting up with her. She said she will look into it. I didn't hear back from her, so I went down to her again like 2 months later. When I told her that kids are physically hurting my daughter the second time, she
1.made believe she never knew about my dd having any problems,
2.let me know that the school theme this year is ahavas yisroel and any child that hurts other kids will be expelled. (the teacher also said that and they keep on talking about it in class.)
3. let me know that she will speak to the kids that I told her about, but "what will I do if they say that they didn't do anything?"
then I called 2 weeks later to see what happened so far, and right in the morning the secretary said that the principal is not available. I left my phone number and no one ever called me back.

amother

Tue, Feb 09 2010, 8:11 pm

continuation:
between the 2 time that I spoke to the principal, I meanwhile went to the other principal. she told me that it's called bullying and that there is nothing to do about it. it even happens in non-jewish schools.
so, I decided to go to the RAV. the school is a mosed school. I went to the Rav. he was very upset and asked why I didn't go to the teacher or principal. I told him that they keep on ignoring the problem.
so, he called in his gabbai who happens to be the principal's brother and told him the problem. the Rav told him that he needs to speak to his sister the principal. then the Rav asked what the name of the 2 kids that physically hurt my dd. and it came out that the Gabbai's granchild was one of the kids starting up with my dd. he was very upset and said he will talk to his granddaughter. he spoke to her and the next day she apologized to my dd.
meanwhile, this other child lightly punched my dd in the stomach today during lunch.
NOW I GOTTA CALL THE PRINCIPAL AND THE TEACHER TOMORROW!!!

life'sgreat

Tue, Feb 09 2010, 9:44 pm

GR wrote:

Uh, I was pretty miserable in school too, for the record, and no, my parents never asked me seriously if I wanted to change schools.

My point here was that we haven't heard a thing about the son here except that he gets angry. The parents don't seem to be making any decision so far, which is the same thing as making the decision to stay.

So I'm saying, what does the son have to say about the whole thing? We haven't heard yet.

From my own experience I am doubting that across the board, all victims of abuse choose to stick with the bullying over staying away.

I misunderstood what you had written. I thought you meant that they should ask the child if he wants to stay and if he wants to (out of pressure, fear of being called a coward, sissy etc...), they should allow him to stay.

amother

Wed, Feb 10 2010, 9:17 am

OP here.
A few points.
One thing my son DOES NOT do, is feign illness. He's not complaining of stomach aches, or headaches, or otherwise *asking* to stay home. Obviously, over the years, we have looked into changing schools, and even homeschooling, and yes, we've worked with "Daas Torah". Sometimes you don't get to choose between a good option, and a bad option. Sometimes you have to choose between two bad options, and believe it or not, this is the less bad of our available options for now.

I'm also learning that this is a wider community problem, affecting many different schools, and more kids than I would think.
I have learned that the chinuch world is a small one, and there are huge political and financial influences, that make it very difficult to get things done. This Menahel is Machatonim with that board member, whose nephew is married to the niece of one of the biggest donors, whose cousin has a son who is a bully.
Then nobody wants to get involved.

There needs to be a systematic approach that is consistently applied from the first day of pre-1-a until the last day of 8th grade. The children, and their parents, need to know exactly what the consequences will be of every behavior. THere needs to be no room for negotiation, and no exceptions.

But, alas, this will be solved when the tuition crisis, and the shidduch crisis are solved.

I am looking into getting help for my son, and I am counting down the days until this is over.

imasinger

Wed, Feb 10 2010, 11:26 am

amother wrote:

OP here.
I'm also learning that this is a wider community problem, affecting many different schools, and more kids than I would think.
I have learned that the chinuch world is a small one, and there are huge political and financial influences, that make it very difficult to get things done. This Menahel is Machatonim with that board member, whose nephew is married to the niece of one of the biggest donors, whose cousin has a son who is a bully.
Then nobody wants to get involved.

There needs to be a systematic approach that is consistently applied from the first day of pre-1-a until the last day of 8th grade. The children, and their parents, need to know exactly what the consequences will be of every behavior. THere needs to be no room for negotiation, and no exceptions.

...
I am looking into getting help for my son, and I am counting down the days until this is over.

I agree with so much of what you say, OP. Thank you for raising the topic here for discussion, and for letting us know how things continue, for those who will be concerned on behalf of your DS -- and, indeed, for all children who are being tormented this way.

Quote:

But, alas, this will be solved when the tuition crisis, and the shidduch crisis are solved.

At one point, I imagine people were saying the same thing about the abuse scandal. Now, however, gedolim have taken note and taken action, and I"yH, children may be safer from predators who were also teachers/rebbes. Regardless of who is related to whomI hope you will continue to make a fuss, and get more people making a fuss to scream with you, until something gets done. If your DS's pain becomes part of an impetus for change, then he will at least have the satisfaction of knowing that some good came out of his suffering.

ChanaRochel

Wed, Feb 10 2010, 3:57 pm

amother wrote:

Thats all fine and voil, until there is a Columbine incident in a major yeshiva, or a child is severely injured, hospatilized, or worse.. Then the media will zoom in like vultures, the authorities go after that school faster then you can say modos or private school, and everyone will be running for cover, regardless of who they are related to or how much money they have.. I fervently, pray this never happens, but I know it will....

hipstamom

Wed, Feb 17 2010, 5:21 pm

Honestly, I would stop the payments immediately. That's not a drastic measure in my mind. Getting hit in the head with a chair and having braces broken is assault, plain and simple. I bet if you stop the payments to the school, you'd get a phone call really fast. People like that only care about getting paid; it's obviously not the safety of the students.

I went to public school. I was bullied to the point when I was pushed down the stairs and got my skull cracked open. I'm 35 years old and I'm just beginning to heal from those 12 years of torture. I had a hard time forgiving my mother for allowing it to happen. It colored my outlook on life. My heart aches for your child. I really wish you would yank him out of that pit!

zigi

Wed, Feb 17 2010, 6:23 pm

ChanaRochel wrote:

amother wrote:

OP, I think you need to change the way you're approaching this problem. Your subject line says it all - "son in crisis." You need to empower your son and not treat him as if he is in crisis. He needs karate lessons ASAP. He needs to clobber one bully over the head one time and everyone will leave him alone. At this age, you should not be involved with the school, teachers and rebbes because no one will respect a kid whose mommy is fighting his battles for him. Get him some good self defense lessons immediately and give him permission to fight for himself.

I really hate to be the wet blanket here once again... But if he uses karate or any martial art, against another child and seriously injures that child, because he isnt a professional, he could be facing serious felony charges, regardless of who started it...Just because you post anonymously as amother, doesnt absolve you from the obligation to think before writing...

if he were to snap and not be in control of the situation he would get in trouble. some bullies manage to ge the victim in trouble. that when he fights back he gets into trouble

amother

Fri, Feb 19 2010, 9:16 am

If anyone is still following this thread, it's OP here with an update.

Ds came home yesterday in a good mood. I asked him how his day went, and he said he got into a fight on the bus. Usually, when he speaks of these things, his shoulders are hunched, he barely makes eye contact, and his voice is monotone.
This time, he was standing tall, looking at me, and talking in an animated voice.
What happened?
Some kids were bothering him on the bus, as they often do; taking his yarmulka and throwing it around, trying to steal his snack etc. He decided to himself, the next kid that bothers me is going to get it. So the next kid who tried to take his yarmulka, he knocked him down using the moves he learned in karate. He was holding him to the ground when the bus driver yelled at them to stop. The driver thought my son was the instigator, but my son didn't care. Even though he got in trouble, his whole demeanor was different when he told the story.
With any luck, kids will think twice before bothering him, now that he fights back, and if they do bother him, he will be confident to know he can take care of it.

In the meantime, he was accepted into our first choice of high school, so he's looking forward to that.

shlomitsmum

Fri, Feb 19 2010, 9:51 am

amother wrote:

B'H Amother!!
I think that the change in his demenor comes from feeling empowered and no longer a victim!
Even if he hets got in trouble at leat he learned that its called "self defense" for a reason and that he is capable of looking after himself!
If it was my son ,I would tell him I'm so proud you are able to "defend" yourself ...to others: note difference between defend and attack...Torah allows a peson tho whack a persuer!

Its a big milestone ,I'm cheering for him!!!! Very Happy

....read a cool book called raising boys I forget the author but it basically explains how boys grow ,interact and socialize.

he basically went from runt to alpha and it felt good!!!

gryp

Fri, Feb 19 2010, 10:53 am

amother wrote:

Glad to hear it.

life'sgreat

Fri, Feb 19 2010, 10:59 am

amother wrote:

Great change.

I suggest that you call his rebbi, talk to the bus driver and principal if needed, and let them know that your son is never an instigator and if he does do something (and others are reporting him), it is because the others started up. I think if they are aware of that, they will at least investigate what happened instead of blaming/punishing your son.

freshie

Fri, Feb 19 2010, 11:18 am

amother wrote:

Good for him! I am worried that they may use this against him though. If you were to complain then they may say well he starts it etc Bullies aren't so quick to give up. I would keep a close watch on what will proceed now. His peers may really try to get him even more now and it's many against one. He has sufferen enough please please make sure he is ok!

good luck and good to hear he got into a high school of his choice. I hope none of his class mates are going there and he will be able to finally have a fresh start.

sagefemme

Sun, Feb 28 2010, 2:18 am

This is a pikuach nefesh situation.

There is no doubt that you are halachically required to move your son from danger.

If you do not, you will be oiver on "lo taamod al dam re'echa"

When we see someone drowning, we do not worry about what his shidduch prospects will be ten years down the road or what high school he will get into. We pull him out. And worry about that stage when we come to it.

That is the same situation here.

Regarding your obligations to the school: yes, the school's inaction is totally reprehensible, but can you really blame them for failing to protect your own child, when you are failing to do so yourself?

Remove your child from that school immediately!

I do not use the term pikuach nefesh lightly. You've already written about TWO incidents that required medical attention. Must you wait for a third, possibly even more severe one, before getting the message?

If halacha and your conscience is not enough for you, I point to secular law.
YOU COULD BE LEGALLY LIABLE FOR PARENTAL NEGLIGENCE, having knowingly allowed your child to remain in a dangerous situation.

All it takes is one health care provider to inform the authorities.

True, lots of people get away with abuse and negligence way worse than yours, but once alerted, there's no telling where the cards will fall.