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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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manhattanmom

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:00 am

amother wrote:

OP here.

-I have thought about calling the police. I'm not beyond it. Perhaps the chair throwing incident would have been a good time. Maybe suggesting a bullying program run by the precinct would be more effective than one run by Torah Umesorah.

I think if your police precinct runs something like that it is definitely worth a try and will probably be better than a Torah U'mesorah one--even if it's just because it uses "scare tactics" although you may have an issue with the hanhala of the school agreeing....

amother

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:03 am

(amother 11:23)

I think social skills training is an excellent idea if you can afford it, tell your son the truth, he is going to learn how to deal with bullies so his life is more pleasant, he is great but its good to know how to deal with maladjusted low self esteem bullies. It is better he learns the skill than rely on others (adults in the school) who usually won't come through. It will help him be self sufficient.

Also if the school thinks his clothing is making it worse, buy him the "right" clothing. It is very bad for teens to stick out as different. I hate materialism but you can't change teenage life. You don't have to point it out to your son, just observe or ask another parent (especially since you are "in town"). It really wont stop the bullying but at least will increase his chances to blend in better for high school.

amother

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:10 am

I do not think you should call the police, I doubt a rav would not consider it being malshin. I do think you need to be pro active just not like that. There are always going to be bullies and do everything in your power to teach your ds self sufficiency. And show up and demand the children who locked him in the locker be dealt with for sure and the chair thrower! At the very least the school needs to speak with those parents. Penalizing grades is not effective by the way, taking away wii's and yelling parents for getting them school pressure is more effective.

katb

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:20 am

I cannot comment from any experience (I don't even have kids yet!) but bullying makes me so angry I just feel I have to add my opinion.

If it were me, I would DEFINITELY withhold payment. If a high school wants to know why you did this, you can make it clear the reason was because the school was not dealing with an extremely serious ongoing incident of physical assualt on your child.

Secondly, I would do everything I could to make the school listen to me. By that I mean that I would turn up there every day and present myself at the menahel's office and demand that he meet with me. (I would probably wait until a time when the kids were in class so that tyour son wouldn't suffer further bullying as a result of you being seen at the school "defending" him). I would literally give the guy NO OPPORTUNITY to evade me.

And I would certainly call the police. If one of my colleagues threw a chair at me, I wouldn't hesitate to call the police. Why should it be different because these people happen to be youngsters?

I am so so sorry your son is going through this. If it is any consolation, my DH was bullied for a year at school and is a stable, happy and confident adult.

I hope you can get this sorted ASAP.

Barbara

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:43 am

OP, I *do* think that its a good idea to send your son for mentoring and social skill training. I'm not blaming the victim here. What is being done to your son is completely and utterly unacceptable, the school, and each and every teacher, should be ashamed that this is allowed to go on, and the boys involved should all be ashamed of themselves.

OTOH, it does seem that your son is viewed as a natural victim, and that is likely to adversely impact him for the rest of his life. Teaching him new skills and new ways to present himself is only likely to help him in the long run. That's what martial arts is about as well -- not necessarily using the skills defensively (or offensively), but the confidence and way you carry yourself.

Good luck with the high school acceptances, and good luck to your son.

Barbara

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:48 am

Just to add -- I know you'd like to call the police. But my knowledge of adolescent boys is that the day that you call the police is the day AFTER you pull him out of school, make sure that he's always in the company of an adult, and make plans to move half-way across the country. Because these kids, and their friends, will make his life a living h*ll. And since the school doesn't want to be liable, they're likely to paint your son as a liar with little grasp of reality (Yossi slipped and the chair skidded out) with serious psycho-social issues. This will follow him into high school as well.

amother

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:06 am

new amother here,
im crying as I am reading these posts. I have a 6 yo ds who has been bullied in the past and now after reading this I am soooo nervous. it sounds like it only gets worse as they age!!!!!
op, is there any advice you have for me, anything you would have done while your ds was young to nip this in the bud?
my ds is soooo sensitive, sweet, admittedly a little whimpy and victim-like. the worst part is that I don't think I handled it well when he first complained b/c now he doesn't even tell us when these things happen b/c he doesn't want to upset me!

pacifier

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:37 am

Your child needs to stop being shy and nice. On your side, you should enroll him in a karate or self defense class. About the school, get from your child all the names of those who bully him, ask the principal to set up a disciplinary meeting with those kids, their parents and the teachers. Of course, you still have to figure out what to ask those boys, what to tell them and how to make sure that anyone who still behave nasty to another student should be sent out of school.

TzenaRena

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:41 am

2 years ago, in fifth grade my son was being bullied. He's also a very sweet kid. Are sweet kids victim types? Confused

My husband called this boy's mother. she was very cooperative, and must have dealt with her son, because it helped somewhat, but not all the way. We then spoke to the menahel, who took the matter seriously and called out the bully to speak with him, and discipline him. The teacher had not been helpful.

The following year, we switched my son's class, although he was not happy about it. He said his new class has ten such tough kids! But in reality, he adjusted well, and he is well liked in this new class. He still wants to switch back, he said the other kid doesn't bother him anymore, he has matured. Confused

life'sgreat

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 11:39 am

amother wrote:

OP here.
-The school also suggested that I take him for mentoring and social skills training. (They also told me I should make sure he wears cool clothes What

). I'm still a little hung up on the stigma of counselling, and I don't understand why he needs it, when it's the other boys that have the problem. As much as it may help him, wouldn't it send him the message that there's something wrong with him, and that's why this happens to him? I always try to tell him that when (an example that happened) someone writes on the blackboard "Yankel (not his real name) is G.A.Y", it says more about the writer than it does about Yankel.

Please continue to share your thoughts with me. It's very helpful.

Reading about them writing he's g.ay makes me want to vomit. Seriously.

OP, I think that by you putting up with all of this, you are in essence, also being bullied. You need to have more of a backbone. Throwing chairs? Writing stuff like that? Locking him in a locker? I really can't fathom how you put up with it. The school knows that they can string you along, because you aren't one of those loud parents that will create a ruckus that will not be worth their while.

Walk into the office every. single. day. until they are ready to sit with you and actually DO what they are supposed to do, which is make sure that every kid in their school is safe and able to feel comfortable in their surroundings. Sit down with them and discuss this. They need to know that they can't mess with you. Insist on having a meeting with all the parents of these kids. Insist on them disciplining the kids that threw the chair, locked him in the locker etc... And the rebbe that told him to sit down when he tried to give his speech can use a lesson or two as well. You are the only one that can protect your son. Don't let yourself be bullied by the school.

Regarding the counseling. It's true that the bullies are the ones that have the problem. But the fact of the matter is that
a. your son is suffering and can use someone that can help him work this through and not come out scarred from all of this.
b. Even if they are the ones with the problems, your son, at this point in time, has scars from it, is already a victim, which is hard to turn around. He needs to learn new skills on how to deal with it. Otherwise, he might take along his victimhood to yeshiva and this cycle can CH"V start all over again. Many victims have the bullying follow them wherever they go because of their past victimhood. If he doesn't learn proper skills and builds his self esteem, he might fall into being bullied again.
c. It won't send a message to him that something's wrong if you don't give him that message. Discuss it with the counselor/therapist as to how to present it to him. Perhaps "I feel that you can gain a lot by learning how to deal with the bullies. What they are doing is so wrong, and we need someone professional to help us learn how to deal with them. We love you the way you are, but if we all (including you, the parents) learn new ways to deal with the mean kids, it can be great for you and us". I don't know if that would work, but you can't go wrong by asking a professional about how to deal with it.
d. Telling him that what they wrote on board says more about them isn't enough for a child that has that written about him. Something like that can really really affect a kid for life. He needs and deserves the help to get past it. But I think first you need to work through your own feelings about counseling and the stigma you feel is attached to it. If you don't feel there's a stigma, there won't be for him.

I hope you find good solutions. Hug

amother

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 1:16 pm

OP here.
More random thoughts on your much appreciated help.

-I have gone in unanounced to see the principal. They always tell me he's in a meeting or whatever. And when I do speak to him, he says all the right things. It won't happen again, We're on top of it, THe boys involved have been dealt with........... There's just no follow-up
-Tzena, I sadly do think that it's the quiet, sweet, timid, bookish type boys who will be victimised (in general, not absolutely). To the amother who asked for advice about her young son who was starting down this road, I wish I knew. I've done all the wrong things. I've intervened when I shouldn't have, and I've stayed quiet when I should have made a noise. The one thing I might have done differently, is put him in a sport. Not a team sport, like baseball or hockey, but an individual one like swimming or running. It would have given him an opportunity to be successful, and like someone else said, that changes your posture, your attitude, your confidence, and might take the "pick on me" sign off your back.
-Life'sGreat, that's a great point, that I'm being victimised here too by being ignored. I'm going to think more about that, and come to a plan.

Please keep the ideas coming...

life'sgreat

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 1:25 pm

amother wrote:

OP here.
-Life'sGreat, that's a great point, that I'm being victimised here too by being ignored. I'm going to think more about that, and come to a plan.

Please keep the ideas coming...

I've come to realize that often, the parents also feel bullied and subtly give that messages to their kids. I know I've done that with my son who was bullied at a very young age. I was bullied myself. Learning to change that can start from the parents. It isn't easy, I know.

amother

Fri, Feb 05 2010, 4:30 pm

I have to stop reading this thread, it is raising my blood pressure too much, and aggravating me too much to function. I can honestly say if it was my son, I would send him to school with a loaded gun, and teach him how to use it... This is not a 'black hat Yeshiva', its a BS Yeshiva..

I can assure you if there was a Columbine incident at a Yeshiva, C"v a million times, all the Yeshivas would get their act together MIGHTY fast...

manhattanmom

Sun, Feb 07 2010, 10:42 am

I'm just wondering about the parents of the bullies.
I know for sure that it IS the school's responsibility and the school administration MUST do something about it...
But have you spoken to any of the bullies' parents? Are they even aware of anything that's going on?
I would have NO tolerance at all for such behavior in my children and if I were to ever find out that one of my kids were doing something like this, there would be some SEVERE consequences at home.
This whole thing is making me so sick (and a slight bit nervous about my toddlers growing up.)

amother

Sun, Feb 07 2010, 11:28 am

That said,[b] schools cannot do squat about bullying, even if they became responsible and supervised and punished the children, the bullied child will still be bullied albeit in other manners. [/b]
Rubbish, Garbage, Balderdash etc!
They CAN do!
They have to WANT to do!
They have to get EDUCATED on how to!

Dear OP
they threw a chair at his head????????
If that happened to me and if the school did "squat" I'd be contacting other authorities.

It happened in our community a bigger kid sent a younger kid to the hospital and the hospital contacted the police. Up until then the school didn't seem to be able to stop this kid from being physical... but when the police got involved and it became known that had the child been a few months older he could have been arrested (and it wasn't so old) then suddenly a program was set in place to curb his violence and he stopped!
So my question is, what would happen if you went to the police? You have doctor's records and orthodontic.
I'd be afraid to send my kid back there!

amother

Sun, Feb 07 2010, 11:28 am

sorry I forgot to put the person I was quoting in quotes

marina

Sun, Feb 07 2010, 12:39 pm

I am incredibly angry as I read this thread. Not only with the school and the principals, but also with you, the parents.

You need to take your kid out of the school yesterday. Speaking as a school psychologist, I will tell you that bullying to that level causes incredible emotional damage, on par with rape I would say.

If you know me on this board, I do not say these things lightly. In general, I am of the school of thought that kids are resilient and bounce back and can handle most things well. I think most parents overreact and take things to an extreme.

This is not one of those cases. You are underreacting. Your child needs to not spend one more day in that environment. Blame the awful school, the horrible administration ( I have no idea why you are sending money to them still), but if he goes there on Monday, what happens to him is entirely your fault.

I don't care if it is not practical or if a high school won't accept him or whatever sillyreasons you have. Your kid is thinking about killing himself, probably daily. I guarantee that. Do whatever you have to do, even move, leave the state and the country if you have to, but do not let him go back for even one more day. Be happy that he is still alive.

After you take him out, then spend time figuring out where he is going to go and all the high school and homeschooling stuff. Not before, otherwise it will be too late.

Last edited by marina on Sun, Feb 07 2010, 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Sun, Feb 07 2010, 1:04 pm

About your tuition, I would find a lawyer to sue the school to get all of the money you paid back. All of it.

WriterMom

Sun, Feb 07 2010, 1:14 pm

Seriously consider going to the police. Throwing chairs? Violence that damages dental braces? This is criminal assault, and depending on the jurisdiction could also implicate the staff, who know about this and don't stop it or protect your son from it. This isn't snapping a towel in the locker room or stealing his lunch, it's behavior that, in an adult, would lead to criminal charges and civil damages.

I don't know if it would, as Barbara suggests, make it worse for your son at school. That's a real possiblity. Maybe, on the other hand, the bullying has gotten so bad because the bullies have experienced no consequences, and learning that that has changed might change the dynamics. In either event, removing your child from the school would obviate that problem.

It also might be worth exploring if you could get damages from the school, specifically to pay for therapy. Get your kid somewhere safe, get him help so he can heal, and yes, take appropriate measures against the school. And possibly the parents of the bullies - have they been informed? By the school, or by you? Are they aware of what's happening, and are they doing anything concrete to stop it?

ChanaRochel

Sun, Feb 07 2010, 1:54 pm

marina wrote:

About your tuition, I would find a lawyer to sue the school to get all of the money you paid back. All of it.

WOW!!!!! Marina , my admiration for you just shot up 1000%..... I thought I was the hothead on this thread.... Are you the only baalas sechel here.....

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