TW: Sleeping guests for shabbos -child abuse safety

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note

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Comptroller

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 1:21 am

amother OP wrote:

Normal is relative, it’s not normal for a rabbi to go into a kids room and arouse himself on them either but that’s what happened with the abuser and I’m trying to prevent situations like that. The only way we can is by talking about it

If you approach it statistically, I suppose it would happen more often that your own husband would abuse your children than sleeping guests.

What was described there was probably a rare occurence.

So of course, if you all the time have sleeping guests you don't know, it would be a good idea to isolate the basement from your living area. But if your sleeping guests are your guests, people you know, people you trust, I don't think this kind of precaution is warranted. Because what would you do if your husband was the perpetrator, which is relatively more frequent?

amother

Yellow

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 1:59 am

Comptroller wrote:

I was molested by my uncle when we were staying by my grandparents

Most abusers are familiar people and family members.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 6:18 am

Comptroller wrote:

Statistically how many kids will go to the top of the roof and it could potentially be dangerous and they would do something? However the torah still gives us a clear guideline and a mitzvah to make a fence over a flat roof. It’s called boundaries. And I’m not ready to stop having sleepover guests, it adds so much to my families oneg shabbos, I simply think it’s the responsible thing to do to set a boundary despite the fact it might not happen frequently that kids get abused in their sleep or while guests are staying over. I’m sure people also locked the door to the roof if they had kids.

Btw this concept of having a separate entrance is nothing new. I’m a BT and when I was single spent shabbos in new square a few times and I had an isolated apartment that you enter from the basement when I stayed. I was brought refreshments when I got there it was BH very well done and I was happy. When I went for shabbos to Brooklyn the same thing.

We recently had a family I'm friends from seminary with the mom. The husband is what you might call airy. He put his kids to bed but wasn’t done eating. I wanted to go to sleep, I had already cleaned up he asked me to keep the chicken out. This really put me off because we live in a ranch with the dining area next to the kids rooms. The fact that he was coming back upstairs and eating made me uncomfortable bc I was already sleeping. Anyway, at the very least I think it’s important to have boundaries and we do our part, Hashem will do his bzH

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 6:23 am

amother Yellow wrote:

I was molested by my uncle when we were staying by my grandparents

Most abusers are familiar people and family members.

Amother Yellow I am so deeply sorry. Sending you hugs:( and the abuse I’ve heard of from my family also happened between family members. Hugs hugs hugs

tichellady

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 6:27 am

I think You shouldn’t have guests that you feel that nervous about. Most people are not child abusers and you can’t live life assuming that they are ( I mean I guess you can but that seems very unhealthy )

imaima ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 6:46 am

amother OP wrote:

I mentioned in my post that I have exits to the outside, 3 doors to the outside plus 5 large windows gd forbid in case of a fire. It’s basically a 3 bedroom apartment downstairs. No kitchen though but I would provide a fridge refreshments and water

Just don’t host.
Locking up your guests is abuse of guests.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 9:11 am

I imagine that abuse can only happen when a young girl is alone in a room and not when a few girls are sharing a room together. Am I wrong?
Whenever I have guests, usually the kids are a few to a room. Of course I would never leave a young child alone with a stranger and even with babysitters - a few together.

Am I an ostrich?

Ruchel ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 9:15 am

I didn't read because I'm afraid of the tw. In my world you don't really take strangers like that to sleep... my fil zal would rather pay a hotel!! but he had the means for that.
FTR I'd rather a SHABBESDIKE hotel to running in the corridors dressed and half asleep to avoid being seen by my host or knowing I embarrass my host(ess)

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 9:33 am

Ruchel wrote:

I am married and live a frum life today because of strangers that took me in and taught me what shabbos is. To each their own, hacanosses orchim has many different flavors, but each has a place and is necessary

amother

Hawthorn

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 9:39 am

My kids sleep in bedrooms off the same hallway very close to my room.
I often have guest downstairs. I keep my door open, theirs closed.
Their door makes a lot of noise. It drives me crazy sometimes. But I don't oil it for that reason. If a kid wakes to use the bathroom I hear it squeak. If someone would open their door, I'd hear it squeak. Even if my door was closed I'd hear it but I hear better when open obviously. So I keep my door open for extra measure.

I don't think I'd lock the basement door.

Growing up, we didn't have a basement. And the guest room was next to my room and my parents room on the other end of the hallway.
My father used to lock the door from the inside once I was asleep (he had an easily accessible key in his night table) and leave his door open. He came to check on me in the middle of the night too. (I woke me more than once. Pretended but to wake. Lol)
My father was very big on hachnasas orchim. But that didn't come before the safety of his children.
We had some very interesting characters over the years. Including refugees and homeless people he'd helped settle back into normal life.

amother

NeonOrange

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 9:46 am

cnc wrote:

That was never stated outright - it was an assumption and there were additional victims as well.

In fact another victim came forward after the interview and this man is in jail again serving for that.

I was vomiting when watching him. He never once admitted that it was his fault.
His wife this family that he wanted to get back at. Oh boy.

OP you should do anything that makes you feel safer.

I personally would only host guest for meals not to sleep.

I myself was abused for years by someone that was sleeping in our "seperate basement" with no staircase from the house with a seperate entrance from the street and my parents thought they're oh so good for hosting these people.

amother

DarkRed

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 9:51 am

If they are your guests then no you cant lock them out of your house. Lol.

If they are your neighbors guests and just sleeping at your house, you can add some amenities like a hot water urn and mini fridge and you can definitely lock at night.

We dont host other peoples sleepover guests anymore because my son sleeps in the basement and Im not able to ensure his safety.

amother

↑ RosePink ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 10:13 am

cnc wrote:

That was never stated outright - it was an assumption and there were additional victims as well.

Unfortunately it was more than an assumption, I remember when it originally came out Mad

Though you’re right about the additional victims…

↑ imaima

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 10:24 am

amother OP wrote:

Same here.
However I don’t think I could host strangers nowadays

amother

↑ RosePink ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 10:25 am

amother OP wrote:

We recently had a family I'm friends from seminary with the mom. The husband is what you might call airy. He put his kids to bed but wasn’t done eating. I wanted to go to sleep, I had already cleaned up he asked me to keep the chicken out. This really put me off because we live in a ranch with the dining area next to the kids rooms. The fact that he was coming back upstairs and eating made me uncomfortable bc I was already sleeping. Anyway, at the very least I think it’s important to have boundaries and we do our part, Hashem will do his bzH

In this example, it would make the guests feel really unwelcome to be locked in the basement. I understand why you’re uncomfortable with your kids rooms being right there, but as a guest (which you said you were often), how would you feel if your hosts did that to you?

Also, in this situation it makes sense that the husband would want to finish eating… you said he stopped in the middle of the meal to put his kids to bed. It would actually have been appropriate for you to OFFER to leave the food out for him to finish once he’s done. Since most people don’t think like abusers, he probably never thought about the fact that your kids bedrooms are near the dining room, aside from keeping quiet so he doesn’t wake them.

Was there something about this particular guest that put you on alert?

↑ Ruchel ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 10:56 am

amother OP wrote:

Many kiruv people never have sleep in guests simply due to space and are successful.

amother

Ultramarine ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 11:38 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I had a girl sleep over at my house when I eas 11 and the 16 year old male close fam friend who was babysitting me and my 2 brothers came in to grope both of us.

amother

Celeste

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 11:42 am

amother OP wrote:

Statistically how many kids will go to the top of the roof and it could potentially be dangerous and they would do something?

A lot. Both deliberately and accidentally.

amother

↑ Ultramarine ↓

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 11:50 am

[quote="Ruchel"]Many kiruv people never have sleep in guests simply due to space and are

Some are highly aware of who is safe and who is not.
We hosted many for kiruv and otd kids over the years and the saftey of my family was always on my mind.
One Shabbos I hung out all day to watch someone who I felt might be unsafe.
I also threw out a boy because he wasn't behaving appropriately. Later his mother told me she doesnt understand why he was thrown out of one yeshiva and in the next thrown out for "sitting on another boys bed". Father of said boy was eventually in prison for molestation. I called out the rosh yeshiva from first place he was thrown out and he did not give me a satisfactory answer and that he had just passed the buck. Very disappointing.

We as parents have to be aware and vigilant.

amother

↑ Ultramarine

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 11:52 am

Is it possible that only someone who themselves was molested can shmeck out a possible molester? I wonder if that is the case.

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