Asking Hashem Not to Test Us

mimivan

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 7:54 pm

I am wondering if anyone can help me with this paradox...

We daven that Hashem will not test us, and yet we know he will test us...but perhaps this isn't the paradox that is bothering me so much as...

The stronger the person, the bigger the test...if I don't want the pain and suffering of a nisayon, why would I want to be strong? Why not just convince myself I'm weak and pathetic so I won't be given such a big test?

I mean, I know we can't fool the Abishter. But I have found often in my life when I make deliberate efforts to strengthen myself spiritually and then something really huge happens in my life, and of course I know it is a nisayon, but then I wonder "Why didn't I just stay where I was? I wouldn't have to suffer this. Why not just stay broken hearted and beg for rachmonis all the time? Why lift myself up to be knocked down, even though I know it is just a nisayon" part of me (I know this is the yetzer hara, but still) feels it wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have said to Hashem "I will try to have total faith in You...I will try to see the hasgocha protis in everything that happens to me etc.." Of course I know the expression "If G-d brings you to it, He can bring you through it." But if Hashem brought me to it because I was feeling strong before, then why feel strong? Or maybe I was arrogant when I was feeling strong and I am being punished?

I am not posting anon because I am admitting alot of this is the yetzer hara and not the way I really feel. But I don't think I'm alone in noticing this.

I hope this makes sense and people who have felt this way can provide some insight...

Last edited by mimivan on Thu, Dec 04 2008, 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

cassandra

Thu, Dec 04 2008, 8:27 pm

I think not asking is kind of masochistic. God wants us to be self-preserving. And you can have the best attitude and still not want things to happen. It's human nature.

The answer to your second question is something I have struggled with myself. My life was a relatively calm, peaceful place and deep down I knew that it's because I'm not that great, and that was always oddly comforting. But most people grown even without trying so hard since I believe that everything else being equal people naturally want to grow. When bad things started to happen I started to become a better person... I don't think you can force yourself to be a strong or weak person in terms of how things will happen, people will evolve in a certain way no matter what. Just the fact that you can wonder about these things and perceive how things operate shows a level of greatness whether you like it or not. It isn't about feeling strong, it's about the fact that strong is who you are. I don't think anyone can stay exactly the same even if they tried, and very often people take on to self-improve not because of some cosmic reason but because it'll help their immediate world at that moment.

shalhevet

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 3:24 am

In answer to being weak and pathetic so we won't have big tests - we all have tests on our level. So if someone is weak and pathetic they will have a test that's just as hard for them as a difficult test for someone strong.

It's like the yetzer tov and the yetzer hara (not like, it is) - they have to be balanced so as to have free choice. It's like saying 'if I wasn't frum my yetzer hara would be not to light candles tonight, and that's easy, so I'd overcome it', but if I wasn't frum, it would be difficult for ME.

As we grow (or chalila the opposite), we move the 'battle lines' so that what used to be an impossible test is now within our grasp.

(This idea is from Michtav Meeliyahu.)

Also, if we pass a test we become stronger.

The bit about asking for Hashem not to test us when we know He will - that is an excellent question, no idea.

ora_43

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 3:52 am

I don't think it's as simple as "the stronger you get, the harder the test." For one, I agree with shalhevet--the weaker you are, the harder the test looks. But also, if you look around, there's no simple correlation between the righteous and a difficult life. Sometimes you see the same exact thing happen to two people, one just takes it in stride and for one it's horribly difficult, so then how can you say that it was a test reserved for people on a particular level, if for some it's hardly a test?

For example, if someone gives birth to a child with a disability does it make sense to think, "oy, this must be because I davvened so much recently and worked on not speaking lashon hara" when 1. people who don't davven or try to avoid lashon hara give birth to kids with the same disability and 2. some people are totally overwhelmed by this situation and some think it's not such a bad thing? (in other words, it's not necessarily inherently a test--for some it is, for some it isn't. of course some things are a test for everyone, but still, harder for some than for others).

I don't think there's any way to avoid difficulty or tests. No by being extra good and doing lots of mitzvot, and not by being spiritually lazy and imagining that if we stay deliberately weak Hashem will just leave us alone (if anything, I would think Hashem would definitely send a test to someone trying to stay weak, out of love, in order to not allow them to hold themselves back).

I think it makes sense to ask Hashem not to test us for two reasons--1. because we can try to improve ourselves without tests. Why ask Hashem to make our lives hard so that we improve ourselves? If we realize we need improvement, why not say "Hashem, I'm working on it, please let me do this the easy way"? and 2. we can add our own tests. I'm sure we can all think of projects we could take on, chessed we could do, etc, if we need another challenge. It's similar to #1--we can say "Hashem, if I have any extra koach I'll go volunteer with severely handicapped adults, so you don't need to send a test my way--I have one all planned out."

cassandra

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 8:08 am

shalhevet wrote:

Not if you subscribe to the idea that your level of hashgacha pratis is based on how great you are. So if you aren't so great you could squeeze by without as many tests.

Tamiri

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 8:15 am

I think about this every day. I agree with Shalhevet: the bigger the person, the more of a nisayon he/she can bare. We are told to go from strength to strength. Perhaps "hopping" from one nisayon to the next is the way we go stronger. Maybe Hashem is looking to see if we have a breaking point, to see if we have a lapse in our emuna.
When you find the answer, please let me know.

ChossidMom

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 8:19 am

Mabye I'm not on the wavelength of the ladies here but it's not something I can identify with at all. I never davened not to be tested. I just daven that all will be well and that we will be healthy I also focus on asking God to help me align my will with His. It's obvious that tests will come. But if my will is aligned with God's it will be easier to cope. And I do know that each test helps me to grow.

Anyway, I don't know if that's a proper answer, Mimivan, but it's how I see things. I'm not great at analyzing...

bubby

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 8:31 am

Some people seem to have more than their fair share of tests. We can't second-guess G-d, so as Chossid Mom says (I think) we need to just pray for the best & deal with the worst in the best way we can. My father used to say if all it takes is money it'll be OK. Everything else...he actually had a tremendous level of Emunah & B'tochen. We all get tested on different levels every day. Some we pass, some we fail. Most of the time we don't know it's a test. If we did we'd react differently.

Now who doesn't make sense??

cassandra

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 8:35 am

ChossidMom wrote:

We say it in brachot every day-- "v'al tavienu....lo liydei nisayon"

(Though now that I'm thinking about it's interesting, because we also ask G-d not to bring us to sin, things which are in our control. I have to think the connection through.)

justmom

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 8:36 am

It's interesting how people look at things-- I'm not on the level to look at hardship as a nisayon, I see it as a hardship that I need to get through, hopefully with my emuna intact. I have a hard time subscribing to the belief that it's because of something I did or didn't do, or that improving myself will give me fewer nisyonot, or more of an ability to handle them. On the other hand, I know an almana who in speaking about her husband's death calls it her nisayon. I guess it's a level to try to reach (can't think of the word now-- maybe bcz. it's 40 minutes before Shabbos-- lucky we're eating out tonight!!)

cassandra

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 12:13 pm

justmom wrote:

It's interesting how people look at things-- I'm not on the level to look at hardship as a nisayon, I see it as a hardship that I need to get through, hopefully with my emuna intact.)

That is what a nisayon is! Getting through something and hopefully coming out stronger, not weaker.

Quote:

I have a hard time subscribing to the belief that it's because of something I did or didn't do, or that improving myself will give me fewer nisyonot, or more of an ability to handle them. On the other hand, I know an almana who in speaking about her husband's death calls it her nisayon.

I don't really believe that either. But I do believe that the world was created and is run by G-d and therefore everything that happens has an internal, divine logic. Because of this we can always choose to make the best of what has happened (usually this occurs by becoming stronger people. sometimes it's other things.) That's what a nisyon is. And you can choose to look at everything as a nisayon (ie, an experience that allows you to grow and get stronger). It actually seems to me to be an easier way to look at things because it's more comforting to know that something will come out of a hard situation rather than thinkin that it's just random bad luck.

zaq

Fri, Dec 05 2008, 1:02 pm

cassandra wrote:

. we can always choose to make the best of what has happened (usually this occurs by becoming stronger people. sometimes it's other things.) That's what a nisyon is. And you can choose to look at everything as a nisayon (ie, an experience that allows you to grow and get stronger). It actually seems to me to be an easier way to look at things because it's more comforting to know that something will come out of a hard situation rather than thinkin that it's just random bad luck.

to me the most comforting way of looking at hardship is to consider it an atonement for something I did, so that I pay for it now and not in olam haba. It may be completely untrue: for all I know, the hardship should have been much worse but G-d granted me some clemency as a reward for having done s/t good, but that's not nearly as comforting a thought. what I refuse to do is speculate that this particular experience is atonement for that particular sin.

justmom

Sat, Dec 06 2008, 12:02 pm

Zaq-- what a scary way to live-- thinking nisyonos are specific punishments, but you're not even sure what for. I don't know, maybe this will get me kicked off even the MO forum, but I truly do not believe I burned my hand, missed the plane etc. bcz. G-d is punishing me-- I don't feel that I'm on the level for G-d to be saying-- she did something that ticked me off, let's get her! I think those immediate responses are reserved for tzadikim on a much higher level than I.

cassandra

Sat, Dec 06 2008, 6:15 pm

justmom wrote:

I think the theological question of whether G-d is actually punishing you is irrelevant-- whether G-d actually chose that specific punishment for you for a specific reason. I don't think any of us can ever determine that, and I don't think it really matters. We can still use the events of our lives as teachers, they can help us better ourselves and become stronger people. Isn't that the point of living on this Earth? To be the best we can be despite the curve balls thrown at us in the form of our own personal deficiencies and forces beyond our control?