Upholding torah's ways or close relationship with child

In your opinion, whats more important:
A) To uphold torah's standards, being immutable because the Torah way is the only proper way
B) To maintain a close relationship with your child
?

If you know that enforcing a Torah standard in your house for one of your kids will estrange the kid from you and have them move out where you can't keep an eye on them at all anymore and have limited or no influence on them, would you relax your standards for your kid, or remain firm regarding torah.

Like if your son was all touchy feely sleep in the same bed "accidentally" as his girl friend, would you set your foot down and say "None of that in my house" when you know theres a big chance that saying that will cause your kid to move out and rent an apt with his girl friend?

Diamond Member Joined: Sep 16 2007 Posts: 4185

there's really no one answer. In a real-life situation like this, one has to ask the LOR, together with any and all pertinent details. I've discovered that yes, there must be a red-line that doesn't get crossed, but hopefully by that age, you will have built up a strong enough relationship for them to respect it. But, in the end, this is their own decision to make.

I say close relationship with the child b/c MANY MANY times just the fact that you are trying to uphold the torah's ways may make a child try to disrespect you and your ways.

I think there is such a thing as tough love, but I think before that, try and try again to love the child. many times children act out because they feel that the love that they want/need from a parent just is not there and the way to get it is to act out (against religion, against the parents etc.)

Diamond Member Joined: Oct 29 2006 Posts: 4461

I have never said that something that was wrong is ok to my teenagers. I will selectively turn a blind eye.

Compromising on your values will only ruin your relationship. Screaming will as well.

I calmly told each of my kids that they may not change the atmosphere of our home. As to behavior outside I have told each one of them about certain behaviors that I, HaShem and the Rebbe do not approve and never will but they are now adults befoe HaShem will have to face their own consequences. In a home with 7 children I did not have the luxury of allowing everything in my home.

All of my kids are teenage and up now. All of them are frum. The ones who are younger (13-15) and are challenging the rules are aware that they still may not do anything in our home that is not appropriate.

If you talk with them without screaming, try to be positive and realize that the nasty language is usually hormones or bad example you will not lose them. Teenagers have a need to see a clear example and consistant hashkafa from their parents, teachers and rabbonim. It will disorient them otherwise.
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Gold Member Joined: May 14 2008 Posts: 1668

A) To uphold torah's standards, being immutable because the Torah way is the only proper way
B) To maintain a close relationship with your child
there is no "or".to follow in the Torah's ways,is to maintain a close relationship w/your child.
to disown your child bc of their behaviour is the opposite of Chesed.

This doesn't mean,they can do what they want.As I was raising my boobalah (she is 20 now).she drove me CRAZY (and still does from time to time.).

Two things I have always said to her
1.I didnt make the halacha,this is what Hashem wants,u think I know better?
2.U have free choice, u can do what u want,but realize the consequences of your choice may not be to your liking.

when it came to things in reference to the rules of the house,I did the same thing my dad did.
He would say"lets sit down and talk about it"He would sit and really listen to u,and then say,"hold on,I'll be back".when he returned in his hand he held all the bills,and showed them to us.He would look at each one,and sigh,or humph.And then say"I didnt notice your name on any of these bills,so when the bills contain your name,then lets have this discussion again"."whoever pays the bills in the house gets to decide how to run it",when u have your own home u can do what u want".

when I used these same tactics on my dd,and she became older,she did decide she wanted to move out,to "spread her wings".we had an experiment,she paid me what she thought her bills would cost,she paid or her dental work,hair(she averages about 600nis every 2months for this),clothes(dont even ask!)and mieser(of course not in this order).she is still living w/us bc she has never gotten up enough money to move out! Laughing

I believe when u are firm,and earn respect(my mother always said u can't demand it,u must earn..even a parent)in the ways u follow Torah,your children will either listen or CVS feel u are a hypocrite and they want non of it.
we spoke about this before on another thread saying one thing and doing something else.classic example:when someone calls,u tell your child to them them u aren't home,u are busy,when u really aren't.
or your child hears u speak LS,or downing others,being judgemental.all these things say the opposite of "upholding Torah's way"so how can we expect to have a true close relationship w/our child when we are teaching them things that are contrary to the Torah?

If a son of mine came home w/a girl and wants her to stay over,I would say to him,"lets ask her parents first is it ok,bc by me IT ISN'T. I would be insulted if a boy wanted me to stay over and not have intentions of marrying me,even if she doesn't know better,I'm thinking of her as a fellow woman".

if he decides they are getting an apt together,Gu zunt ta-hey!I would still maintain a relationship w/him AND w/her.take them meals for shabbos,go out to lunch w/her(talking about their plans).I would keep the lines of communication over.It shows to your son that u love him,but u can't have his behavior in your home.U understand his decision,even though u dont like it.This is the Torah's way(its not ideal)unconditional love as Hashem shows us,but also letting them realize there are consequences for their decisions.He no longer has a free ride(having his cake and eating it too).no one does.

You have smart parents, Akeres. And I'll bet they didn't read all the parenting books either...

Posted: Tue, Oct 28 2008, 7:28 am Post subject:

If you knew the actual halacha here its very rare for there to be a steera.
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If there is one thing I know, I know I will die
If anyone cares, some stranger may critique my life
I may be revered or defamed and decried
But I tried to live right

Ok, so what would you do then, inspired?

Sometimes by setting your foot down you cut off all lines of communication. So happened to someone I know who put his foot down about this girlfriend staying over. (Btw, I said lying in the same bed, not "doing it". there was someone else in the room with them as well, so it wasnt as bad as it sounded.) This person got so mad at his father that he moved out and refused to talk to him and gamarnu. His parents are divorced, so he was able to rely on his mother, he had no need for his father anymore after this happened. He now lives with his girlfriend and has nothing to do with his father.
I think sometimes you might have to look a blind eye for the sake of being able to keep an eye on at all!

Gold Member Joined: Apr 06 2006 Posts: 1492

I wonder how the father's reaction came out?

If it was a blowout, I can understand why the son may cut off ties.

OTOH, a calm discussion afterward, in which a father says, "please respect the rule in this house that girls are not allowed in your bedroom" may not warrant anger. FWIW, my late bubby didn't allow my aunt, who was in her fifties at the time, to share a room with her partner when they visited her. She wasn't preachy, and she was always calm, but it was understood that these were her standards.

Last edited by chanagital on Tue, Oct 28 2008, 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

my experience as well as many of my friends experience...both religious and not.... is that if mom and dad stick to their guns on something.. such as upholding torah....then the child will rebel... but they will find themselves drifting back to their parents ways in the end because if you raised them with Torah values to begin with then in their search for themselves you will find that they are more comfy coming back but kids have to figure it out for themselves. But if you force it on them... it will only drive them away further... you have to give your child time to come back. There are very few pple I know who didn't go through this kind of transformation... you just have to trust in HaShem that everything will work out for the best.
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Make sure I am misspelling not misbehaving! Wink

How about changing the order and wording slightly and then they can both be combined Wink

B) Showing them the beauty of upholding torah's standards, Asking for help since Torah is not balck and white and not all kids are created the same just as no 2 yetzer horas are the same, because the Torah way is the only proper way!
A) To maintain a close relationship with your child!

We should emulate the Aibeshter ,as He treats us we should treat our kids!! can any of us truly say we keep all the 613 mitzvos, can any of us ever say we have never sinned , can we?! yet hashem still embraces us and does not give up 'hope' c"y.