Father Asks School To Bar Unvaccinated Children for son

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southernbubby

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:49 pm

We always waited on the hep b vaccine because our children were not exposed prenatally or at birth. Our docs were fine with that.

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:54 pm

People who don't vaccinate are not automatically diseased like many here are making them sound. Most of my family has never been vaccinated and none of them had any of the diseases that vaccines are said to protect against thank g-d. We do know people personally who had terrible and sad reactions to vaccines and are not willing to take that risk and inject potentially harmful ingredients into our small newborn babies. We also do not use antibiotics, do not eat products with msg etc. both ingredients in vaccines. And we breastfeed at least till age 2 which provides great immunity far better than the vaccines. This is the lifestyle we choose and it works and keeps us healthy. You cannot control the world just because u think vaccines are going to save you. They won't. Put your trust in g-d to save u from disease and not in some artificial man made vaccine full of nasty ingredients. Even with vaccines there is still plenty of illness out there. As a side point many people who don't vaccinate are doing their own real research and plenty of the ones I know are highly educated with PhDs who know how to do proper research. It is not an easy decision to make. You get lots of opposition and usually have to fight with private schools to take your children. People who don't vax usually have strong reasons for it.

goodmorning

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:54 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I'm a bit confused -- he thinks they are obligated to protect the boy in remission, but what does that have to do with the danger to the children being vaccinated -- that they are now pesayim that are being protected by vaccinating? I think I'm missing something here Smile

The question was what level of danger does one have to submit to (themselves/child) to protect a second person from a stronger level of danger.

The answer that he gave is that all activities carry with them some measure of risk. However, activities that are frequently engaged in without heed for the dangers are considered halachically safe under the clause of "shomer pesayim Hashem" -- Hashem will watch out for you if you engage in them. It doesn't mean that they are risk-free; it means that you don't have to worry about the risk. This Rav said that if an activity is within this pool, one is obligated to engage in it in order to do a mitzvah, and saving a life would be good reason to do so. (He provided a proof from milah, in which we ignore certain dangers because they fall under the clause of "shomer pesayim.")

Obviously, which dangers are common enough to be considered "shomer pesayim" is the big question. He gave crossing the street as an example, and he said that he would apply that even to crossing a particular very busy street in Manhattan, which has almost certainly had some pedestrian fatalities over the past few years. His opinion is that vaccinations fall into this pool as well. You may disagree. Smile

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:54 pm

southernbubby wrote:

the 12% estimate was for one strain and one age group.

Age group 12-49. I think a large percentage of us fall in that age group. Besides, I thought you didn't see it on the news.

Barbara

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:55 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Yael cleared it. You are reading way too much into Think1st's post.
She asked a question, asking if anyone has relevant statistics showing the rates of cancer in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.
She didn't imply that someone CH"V caused their child's cancer through vaccination.

I think you're being too sensitive about this.

This was not an attack. If you have information showing how her theory is wrong, by all means, respond.

So you considered the "question" of how much cancer occurs amongst the vaccinated vs non-vaccinated populations to be a real question, even with the sig "more vaccines = more death and disease" immediately below it?

Let me see if I get my parameters straight here. So I go on a home birthing thread and say, "how many babies die due to complications from home birth, that would have been treatable at a hospital?" Just above my sig that says "homebirthing endangers babies" and that would be fine. Since it's just a question. (And I don't know why I'm saying that, because I don't believe it, but it's all I could come up with.)

Good to know the parameters. I'll remember that from now on.

southernbubby

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 11:01 pm

amother wrote:

Age group 12-49. I think a large percentage of us fall in that age group. Besides, I thought you didn't see it on the news.

The flu shot covered 3 strains but other viruses drift that are unprotected. My understanding is that even when the vaccine fails the disease is milder.

southernbubby

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 11:06 pm

My husbands grandmother lost her 5 yr old daughter to diptheria before there was a vaccine. That was one mean epidemic. Glad that bug is squashed.

southernbubby

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 11:36 pm

I looked it up and apparently the polio vaccines given when I was a child were contaminated with a virus that was carcinogenic to monkeys but was never proven to cause cancer in humans. It is theoretically possible for such a danger to occur but no clear connection exists between vaccines and cancer.

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 11:41 pm

southernbubby wrote:

You're talking about this.

southernbubby

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 11:45 pm

amother wrote:

You're talking about this.

yup you got it but why are you posting anonymously?

imaima

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 12:33 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I don't know, honestly. I would start with google scholar and see if anything jumps out at me that is worth a read, and see if something does show a link or shown not to be correlated.

If anything pro-vax jumps at you, do you read it, or is it not worth your read?

seeker

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:26 am

Just as an aside, my 2-year-old's nursery this year said the DOH was requiring every student to either have all suggested vaccines including HepB AND flu or else have a notarized letter explaining why they don't. This DC fell behind on immunizations due to getting a lot of fevers and stuff during her first year and I am a little overcautious about that - I am generally pro-vax but want my kids in full health going in and I like to space them out too. But I don't live next door to my pediatrician either, so it didn't happen quite like that. As it is, after noting minimal side effects after the first doses of the ones given separately, I let them give two at a time from then on to catch her up on things that actually go around (MMR, PC) but saw no reason to rush Hep B - how is anyone spreading hep B in nursery school?! But they say she can't come to school without it. I used her being sick as the excuse in my notarized letter and one of these days I will give it to my kids anyway so they should be protected in the future, I'm not aware of any serious concerns about that one specifically anyway, just that I didn't want to have so much going into my babies at once and this is the one that could wait the most easily. Regarding flu, I just think it's foolish timing to start requiring it for school children the very year that they admit to having been mistaken in predicting the strains. Mistakes can happen and perhaps the vaccine still has value, but they should choose their battles on requiring it.

It makes me sad that my kids won't have the same level of confidence as I do with chicken pox/shingles immunity, since I had a pretty average case of it in kindergarten as did pretty much everyone I knew. But now that it's a thing, they are unlikely to catch it so I want them to be protected when they get older and the disease is harder. They'll just have to keep an eye on their titers I guess.

I'm just glad it's not up to me to make the public health policy decisions on this. There is no perfect answer.

I am with the "trust in Hashem" camp: I do not say "vaccinate your child and trust in Hashem that it won't hurt them" nor do I say "don't vaccinate your child, trust in Hashem that they won't get sick." All I say is "I am going to make the best decision I can with the information available to me on a case by case basis, and trust in Hashem that the outcome will be as He wills it."

deena19k

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:33 am

Think1st wrote:

Have you ever seen an un-vaccinted child allergic to nuts ? or any other food allergy. what is the percentage of cancer patients amongst the vaccinated VS un-vaxed ?

My 2 yr old dd is as of now unvaccinated due to severe allergies. Eggs, soy, dairy, peanuts, and alot of other foods. After consulting with our pediatrician, we have decided to wait to vaccinate her in case she may be allergic to any of the vaccine ingredients. (And she was exclusively breastfed as well.)
I have never read or seen anywhere that vaccines can cause allergies btw.

ora_43

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:41 am

amother wrote:

THAT is exactly the point. HE isn't worried about the risk his son will bring to the rest of the student body. He is only worried about his own kid. Fine. I don't begrudge him that. Just like I put my kids first. Always.

Who said he's not worried about his son passing on illness? But his son can't be vaccinated, so there's nothing to be done. Most of the other unvaccinated children could be vaccinated with little to no ill side effects.

Quote:

But let's call a spade a spade. He is asking everyone else to risk their own kids' health (meaning asking parents who are protecting their children by not vaccinating them to roll the dice and vaccinate them anyhow AND asking all those parents who do vaccinate but worry about their kids being exposed to unvaccinated kids to just deal with it) to accommodate him.

I think it's absurd that you're trying to compare the "risk" of a perfectly healthy child getting a vaccine to the risk of a child whose immune system is recovering from chemo getting a vaccine.

Even people who think there is a significant risk to vaccinating don't usually try to claim it's anywhere near that serious.

ora_43

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:47 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

The risk of an immunocompromised child coming down with a non-VPD (vaccine preventable disease) from any child (regardless of vaccination status) is greater than the risk of an immunocompromised child coming down with a VPD from a non-vaccinated child.
It's impossible to spread the measles if one wasn't exposed, regardless of vaccination status.
...
However, since many adults no longer have immunity to things they were vaccinated for, it's a little presumptuous to just point the finger at non-vaccinated children.

You're speaking as if the connection between non-vaccinated children and more disease were purely theoretical in this case. It's not. He lives in an area where 7+% of kids aren't vaccinated, and where the illnesses people usually vaccinate against are way more prevalent than they are elsewhere in the country.

Quote:

And not everyone can be vaccinated, and that is known too.

Well yeah. That's why he's only talking about those who can be vaccinated.

chani8

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:56 am

This kid got sick when he was 1 1/2yo. By then, according to the vac schedule, he should've been fully vaccinated already.

And if he did not get vaccinated, then this kid falls under 'not vaccinated' like the very kids this father is damning.

But we all know that not being vaccinated does not mean a person is a disease carrier, so I guess we should let this kid go to school anyway.

LittleDucky

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 2:11 am

chani8 wrote:

Chemo destroys ALL immunity so he could of had each disease but it wouldn't stop him from getting it again.

And besides which, even kids who get vaccinated are not up to date by 1.5. Polio: 18 months for 3rd dose. 4th is at 4-6 years. Same with dtap. And MMR? 4-6 years. Same with varicella. And many other diseases as well...

chani8

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 2:14 am

LittleDucky wrote:

Thanks for the FYI.

imaima

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 2:38 am

For those who say the father wants to "endanger" everyone else's kid for the sake of his own - well, he obviously doesn't believe that vaccination endangers everyone.
He would have vaccinated his own child had he not had a MEDICAL exemption, because of the previous chemo.
If other children were endangered, they would also have had a medical exemption and not a personal one.

And those who say, he can catch a virus from anywhere - I don't think a father in his right mind would take such a child "anywhere". I am sure he is not gonna hang out in malls and football games.
He wants him to go to SCHOOL. That's like, a basic right. From the Convention of children's rights.

And definitely, after many years of medical expenses this father has tons of money to spend on a team of tutors to educate his child at home.
Rolling Eyes

imaima

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 2:48 am

And now that we are not in the safe haven, may I add a huge pet peeve of mine - "every parent should do their own homework".
I just can't wrap my mind around it.
I have done my homework by choosing my pediatrician. I surely hope that HE did his homework.

Does anyone really believe that a housewife who knows how to google (and I'm talking about myself here) can do a better research than someone with many years of college, who regularly goes to medical congresses and refreshes his knowledge?

As someone who has a degree and hopes that she has competence in her field, I am offended by the idea, that you can do a proper (independent!) research by googling.

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