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Can Israel ever have real peace?
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Will Israel Ever Have Peace
Not until Moshiach comes  
 86%  [ 87 ]
Yes, if we drop world pressure  
 1%  [ 2 ]
Yes (other)  
 5%  [ 6 ]
No (other)  
 5%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 101



ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 1:28 am
marina wrote:
There are 10-20 million Ahmadiyya Muslims world-wide. These people are peaceful and stand up against violence.

Why don't all western countries support these types of groups and help them flourish? Because war is more popular that's why.

Or because they realize it makes no more sense to try to restrain ISIS by supporting Ahmadiyya Muslims than it would to try to restrain ISIS by supporting the Catholic church.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 1:36 am
marina wrote:
Well, we can try to change this or we can wait for moshiach. While more people die.

Again with the attitude that if someone rejects an "option" for being completely unworkable, it must mean they don't want a solution at all.

Before you accuse people of preferring war to peace, why not take a couple minutes to explain how it is you think Israel can change the school system under the Palestinian Authority?

Or are you saying the world at large needs to change the PA school system? Because that would have made a lot more sense as a response to sequoia's very reasonable point. (Although if you agree that the situation is not in Israel's hands, we're back to waiting.)
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Shopmiami49




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 1:53 am
How can there ever be real peace with people who do not want peace? We seek peace, they seek revenge.

Just went to a speech last night and one of the people who spoke said that in aleinu, there's the posuk שהם משתחווים להבל וריק ומתפללים אל אל לא יושיע. That is the biggest difference between us and them - we daven to a G-d who will save and they daven to a god that shouldn't save. Try making peace with that...
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 1:57 am
ora_43 wrote:
Again with the attitude that if someone rejects an "option" for being completely unworkable, it must mean they don't want a solution at all.

Before you accuse people of preferring war to peace, why not take a couple minutes to explain how it is you think Israel can change the school system under the Palestinian Authority?

Or are you saying the world at large needs to change the PA school system? Because that would have made a lot more sense as a response to sequoia's very reasonable point. (Although if you agree that the situation is not in Israel's hands, we're back to waiting.)


Anyone ever hear of "Palestinian Media Watch" and its founder, Itamar Marcus, who frequently writes for the Jerusalem Post?.
This is from Wikipedia has to say about him and his organization:

"Itamar Marcus is an Israeli political activist, researcher and the founder and director of Palestinian Media Watch, which studies Palestinian society by monitoring and analyzing the Palestinian Authority through its media and schoolbooks.

His work on textbooks led Benyamin Netanyahu to appoint Marcus to represent his country in the negotiations with the Palestinians on incitement in the Trilateral Anti-Incitement Committee (Israeli–Palestinian–American).

As Director of Research for the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace (CMP) from 1998 to 2000, Marcus wrote reports on Palestinian Authority (PA), Syrian and Jordanian schoolbooks. In February 2007 together with Sen. Hillary Clinton he released a report on the newest PA schoolbooks at a press conference in Washington.

Marcus testified before the Education Subcommittee of the US Senate Committee on Allocations, documenting the Palestinian Authority's indoctrination of children to seek death as Shahids – Martyrs – for public relations purposes. He has also presented before members of Congress, and to members of Parliament in numerous countries including, the European Union, Britain, France, Canada, and Australia, and has lectured in universities and conferences world wide.

Marcus is a featured source for the documentary Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West.

Marcus is a former vice president of the Central Fund of Israel. Originally from New York, he now lives in the Israeli settlement of Efrat in the West Bank."

I don't know what exactly Israel on its own can do to change the Palestinian educational system but the world can hardly say that they are unaware of the problem. I guess it's just not a priority.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 2:11 am
ora_43 wrote:
Again with the attitude that if someone rejects an "option" for being completely unworkable, it must mean they don't want a solution at all.

Before you accuse people of preferring war to peace, why not take a couple minutes to explain how it is you think Israel can change the school system under the Palestinian Authority?

Or are you saying the world at large needs to change the PA school system? Because that would have made a lot more sense as a response to sequoia's very reasonable point. (Although if you agree that the situation is not in Israel's hands, we're back to waiting.)

Well for starters, the world can stop funding UNRWA and their vile "educational" material taught in their rocket-housing "schools", etc.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:34 am
Who decides who gets reeducated? The Arabs think Western countries need reeducation. Many Western countries think Israel needs reeducated. So who decides which way is right?

Last edited by Sanguine on Tue, Nov 25 2014, 7:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:39 am
marina wrote:
Well, we can try to change this or we can wait for moshiach. While more people die.

And this idea is not just for Hamas. It's really the only way to stop ISIS as well. It will take a century or more, but it's the only real option.

Take the option of killing everyone. Say we just go in and bomb all those countries- an abhorrent idea, but one that many espouse. You think that will solve this problem? You don't think the same terrorism will sprout in 20 years? Even a more violent form, if that were possible.

Re-education is the only possible thing to try.


I could possibly see this standing a chance with regard to Palestinians. (Assming a very optimistic view point regarding the ability of the world to decide to do this decisively.) But I just don't see this as a "real option" with regard to ISIS. This group actively and openly recruits young children to train them into warriors. Changing the school curriculum won't help much when kids as young as 8 or 9 are already working "for" ISIS

http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-......html

I don't know what your definition of "a real option" is. Yes, everyone agrees that re-education would solve the problem. But I don't think there is anyone with real knowledge of the situation on the ground who believes re-education is possible! Your example of civil rights achievement in the U.S. has many factors that are problematic in terms of drawing a parallel, but even in that case the underlying scenario that allowed the social and political changes to take place was a war that ended in a decisive victory! Once the north won the civil war they were in a position to impose their moral beliefs on the south, and once the official direction of the country was towards more rights and freedom for minorities the very difficult but possible job of "re-education" could begin, and things were able to improve on a cultural level in the north as well. (Again, this is not much different then the de-nazification of Germany.)

In other words, the reason the world is engaging militarily with ISIS is because no radical Islamic group is going to let any Western government or organization waltz in and attempt to re-educate their kids. Your option right now is not "the only real option", because it is not real at all -- and you have not presented any realistic way it could be done.

I do think your underlying point is true. Let's say we were to win a decisive victory over ISIS. (And no, that doesn't mean going in and randomly "carpet bombing" everyone, but it does mean completely annihilating their military capacities and killing or capturing their leaders) That would not BY ITSELF solve the problem. At that point it would be essential to come in and take an active role in rebuilding the society in such a way that the moderate voices become the ones in charge, and all of the elements of "re-education" can be implemented. (And had that been done in Iraq and Afghanistan after the military victories, things may very well have looked different there today. . .)
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 5:12 am
1. Re-education is a very long term process. It will take many generations, a hundred years at least.

2. It will take a huge amount of money and effort from the entire western civilization. Israel, Ora, is a tiny tiny almost minuscule part of this envisioned effort. The burden is on America and other larger, wealthier countries.

3. It is not limited to the PA. It must address radicalism everywhere.

4. It does not address current radicals or even their children. It addresses their great grandchildren.

5. It does not involve going into any current schools and shutting them down or forcing them to change what they teach.

6. Instead, re-education means encouraging and supporting, financially and every other conceivable way, the growth of peaceful versions of Islam such as this one. Now they comprise 1% of Islam adherents world wide. In 100 years, they - combined with similar groups - can reach 80-90% of the population.

We can, over many generations, marginalize the radicals. We can fund the schools the peaceful groups set up, we can fund their outreach, we can protect them with military support.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 5:19 am
marina wrote:
1. Re-education is a very long term process. It will take many generations, a hundred years at least.

2. It will take a huge amount of money and effort from the entire western civilization. Israel, Ora, is a tiny tiny almost minuscule part of this envisioned effort. The burden is on America and other larger, wealthier countries.

3. It is not limited to the PA. It must address radicalism everywhere.

4. It does not address current radicals or even their children. It addresses their great grandchildren.

5. It does not involve going into any current schools and shutting them down or forcing them to change what they teach.

6. Instead, re-education means encouraging and supporting, financially and every other conceivable way, the growth of peaceful versions of Islam such as this one. Now they comprise 1% of Islam adherents world wide. In 100 years, they - combined with similar groups - can reach 80-90% of the population.

We can, over many generations, marginalize the radicals. We can fund the schools the peaceful groups set up, we can fund their outreach, we can protect them with military support.

I suppose this is possible. After all, leftists have done the same thing to the Western World, so I suppose the same thing can be done to the Middle East.

That's long-term.

But we need a shorter-term strategy for dealing with Islamofascism, or Western society won't be here in 100 years to see the fruits of this effort.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 5:22 am
marina wrote:
1. Re-education is a very long term process. It will take many generations, a hundred years at least.

2. It will take a huge amount of money and effort from the entire western civilization. Israel, Ora, is a tiny tiny almost minuscule part of this envisioned effort. The burden is on America and other larger, wealthier countries.

3. It is not limited to the PA. It must address radicalism everywhere.

4. It does not address current radicals or even their children. It addresses their great grandchildren.

5. It does not involve going into any current schools and shutting them down or forcing them to change what they teach.

6. Instead, re-education means encouraging and supporting, financially and every other conceivable way, the growth of peaceful versions of Islam such as this one. Now they comprise 1% of Islam adherents world wide. In 100 years, they - combined with similar groups - can reach 80-90% of the population.

We can, over many generations, marginalize the radicals. We can fund the schools the peaceful groups set up, we can fund their outreach, we can protect them with military support.
As the israelis did for the gazans? who then went and built tunnels to come into israel and kill us? Sure marina. Im sorry. your ide is a dream pipe one. Its just not going to ever work.
Now, I am not saying that there are no peaceful muslims and arabs here in the middle east. There for sure are. but not enough to make any amount of different.
So, you say fund it. Any moneies that have been known to get to the arabs here by israel has been known to end up in the wrong hands. No matter what.
How do you presume to change that? Its just not as simple as you are making it out to be.
ANd you say protect them with military support. Do you not think there are chayalim risking their every day lives on teh boarder of gaza doing just that? For the arabs there that do want peace? Of course there are. But it makes so little difference in the end.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 5:23 am
DrMom wrote:
I suppose this is possible. After all, leftists have done the same thing to the Western World, so I suppose the same thing can be done to the Middle East.

That's long-term.

But we need a shorter-term strategy for dealing with Islamofascism, or Western society won't be here in 100 years to see the fruits of this effort.
exactly.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:38 am
DrMom wrote:
I suppose this is possible. After all, leftists have done the same thing to the Western World, so I suppose the same thing can be done to the Middle East.

That's long-term.

But we need a shorter-term strategy for dealing with Islamofascism, or Western society won't be here in 100 years to see the fruits of this effort.
Yes, I agree. I also think that we have short term strategies in place, but they will ultimately be limited in their effectiveness. Otherwise, there'd be no need for long term strategies.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:44 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
As the israelis did for the gazans? who then went and built tunnels to come into israel and kill us? Sure marina. Im sorry. your ide is a dream pipe one. Its just not going to ever work.
Now, I am not saying that there are no peaceful muslims and arabs here in the middle east. There for sure are. but not enough to make any amount of different.
So, you say fund it. Any moneies that have been known to get to the arabs here by israel has been known to end up in the wrong hands. No matter what.
How do you presume to change that? Its just not as simple as you are making it out to be.
ANd you say protect them with military support. Do you not think there are chayalim risking their every day lives on teh boarder of gaza doing just that? For the arabs there that do want peace? Of course there are. But it makes so little difference in the end.
Of course it is not simple. I never implied it was. But there's simply no other long term option. What else are you going to do?

And re-read what I wrote. I'm not talking about funding Hamas. Although, yes, there will need to be many provisions to ensure the funds find their way to the right place and are not diverted. America does, generally do this. We do support rebel factions that meet our needs. This would expand upon that model in a long term, comprehensive way.

Also, you are not understanding that this is long term. It means building up this peaceful faction until their numbers rival those of the not-peaceful factions. It means teaching children tolerance from nursery and preschool. It means decades and decades or work and set backs and more work.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 11:15 am
marina wrote:
Hatred is taught. Re education means stopping the teaching of lies and propaganda and antisemitic claptrap. It means creating a viable system of moderate Islamic schools that preach tolerance. It means starting with very young children, not the violent adults who are too far gone.

It is a complicated and unpopular opinion, one that would require many steps and attempts and failures. So feel free to wait until moshiach comes or whatever, instead. That's much more likely.
Marina, you're a real dreamer. Maybe you can send the Pied Piper to collect all the children from their parents and take them to Disney Land and give them lots of candy till they forget their parents. Even abused children always defend their parents and want to return to them. Where are you going to teach these children a totally different Hashkafa than their parents have? I will not give up my Jewish beliefs and muslims will not give up theirs. For 2,000 years we dreamed of returning to Yerushalayim. We will never stop believing in the coming of Moshiach. We will never give up our belifs and our laws. Where is it where they want to ban Brit Mila? It's barbaric and child abuse. A little reeducating and you'll see the light. I'll teach your sons to stop this abuse with their children.

Get it? The violence is part of their religion. Jihad. They don't want your life. It's full of everything their religion is against. They're like missionaries. They want to make the whole world Islamic for everyone's good. Nobody wants their children reeducated. They're happy with their current education.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 27 2014, 8:48 am
Sanguine wrote:
Marina, you're a real dreamer. Maybe you can send the Pied Piper to collect all the children from their parents and take them to Disney Land and give them lots of candy till they forget their parents. Even abused children always defend their parents and want to return to them. Where are you going to teach these children a totally different Hashkafa than their parents have? I will not give up my Jewish beliefs and muslims will not give up theirs. For 2,000 years we dreamed of returning to Yerushalayim. We will never stop believing in the coming of Moshiach. We will never give up our belifs and our laws. Where is it where they want to ban Brit Mila? It's barbaric and child abuse. A little reeducating and you'll see the light. I'll teach your sons to stop this abuse with their children.

Get it? The violence is part of their religion. Jihad. They don't want your life. It's full of everything their religion is against. They're like missionaries. They want to make the whole world Islamic for everyone's good. Nobody wants their children reeducated. They're happy with their current education.


You didn't read my post. You didn't read what I said about the way to re-educate and how it would work. I didn't write about changing anyone's current beliefs. I didn't write about teaching a totally different approach to children whose parents have a different hashkafa.

I can't be bothered to debate with someone who can't be bothered to read what I wrote. It's useless.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 27 2014, 9:23 am
Quote:
1. Re-education is a very long term process. It will take many generations, a hundred years at least.

Sounds nice but we can't wait a hundred years but this is an idea to save lives here in Israel and maybe even lay the groundwork for your reeducation. We can't work so slowly. So this is an 8-step plan to end terror in Yerushalayim quickly. Not every Arab is a terrorist so this is a plan to get really tough and stop the terror and get the terrorists out of Israel. They'll stop cause they don't want their families deported to Azza. They have the good life in Yerushalayim. Once they stop this violence they can hold jobs and lead a normal life. Then they will be willing to be partners in peace.


Quote:
Government's 8-step plan to end terror

From revoking the citizenship to baring the Palestinian flag in riots, the bill stipulates eight central moves:

*Israeli Arabs caught engaging or cooperating with terror will automatically lose their citizenship - or Palestinian Authority residency, in the case of Palestinians.

*After completing their prison term, terrorists will be deported from Israel.

*Those killed during their attempt to conduct a terror attack will not receive a funeral.

*The body of terrorists will not be transferred to their families, and will be buried in an unknown location, without ceremony and without future access for their families

*Terrorists' houses will be destroyed within 24-hours of the attack

*Masked stone throwers and those inciting for terror and violence participating in illegal protests in which firebombs or fireworks were thrown will be arrested and held in remand until the completion of legal procedures against them. The same measures will be taken against those who waved an 'enemy flag' during the protests, including the Palestinian flag. Anyone convicted at the end of their remand will lose their social welfare benefits and driving license for a 10 year period.

*Families of terrorists will lose their citizenship and will be deported to Gaza should they express support for their relative's deed. Support, according to the bill, can be expressed through public or social media.

*The bill also includes a clause that would close businesses and printing presses that print posters that support terror or terrorists.

*The bill further stipulates that a business can now request the police to inform them whether anyone of their employers has ever been held in relation to a security related offence and give them the right to fire such an employee.

Nothing will work till we calm them
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 27 2014, 2:14 pm
Did you read above how I said that of course there need to be short-term ways to protect people also?
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 28 2014, 1:05 am
Marina, I remember this reeducation argument going on back in June. Then those peace seeking Arabs decided to shoot thousands of rockets at my violent children. Now, I know I really didn't understand the situation. The world said the Jews needed the reeducation since we acted foolishly by protecting our children with the Iron Dome and Bomb Shelters. Why didn't we understand that there would be peace on earth if we only had used our children as human shields. I guess we do need reeducating.

You're right. We don't want peace. All we want to do is wait for Moshiach. That's why we uprooted thousands of Jews in Gush Katif to let those Arabs have a fresh start. So the leaders are violent, not the people. Well those peace seeking people elected Hamas as their leaders. Other parties promised them other things but Hamas promised them blood and death to the Jews so they grabbed it. I know, I know, we just have to reeducate their infants. Well it's not going to work. The little pinky can't work till we cut off the ugly head. Not the other way around.

Now, I want peace. Of course I believe in Moshiach but I obviously believe in a Jewish homeland now. Nobody wants to live with violence. My roads are dangerous. My boys waste three years of their lives defending our borders. Nobody wants to live like this. I would gladly give up my home in the Shomron if it meant peace. But we saw how well that worked with Gush Katif. I guess we did that step too soon. First we had to reeducate.

The Islamic peace seekers can't rise up against their stronger violent leaders. How could they? They're peaceful. They have no weapons. Anyone who tries, gets his head chopped off. The leaders don't care about the people. How many times this summer did we warn them to move before we bombed? The leaders shot whoever tried to.

Marina, you have a beautiful plan but it is totally unrealistic. That's why even non-believers say "We'll have peace with the Arabs when Moshiach comes" (or when he** freezes over - of the 3 choices, Moshiach is our best bet)
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