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Need Chizuk
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 1:18 am
mummiedearest wrote:
amother, why would it be ok for you to read "treif" things in order to prevent her from reading them? if there are things out there that shouldn't be read, you shouldn't read them. and that means that no one can read anything, ever. because you never know what might be inside a book until you read it. she's old enough to be aware of certain themes, to avoid certain sections in the library, to close a book if she finds it disturbing, to ask questions if something is puzzling. she's also old enough to take written material with a grain of salt. if she were 30 and living in her own home, would you want to screen her reading material? no? at what age do you think this trust begins? she's telling you that she is claiming your trust. and it IS insulting when you tell her that you want to protect her in this way.


Op said she she was able to read a description of the book on the internet. She didn't actually read the book but the website told whether or not a book was kosher and why.

As for the poster who said that books with romantic themes are inappropriate, I agree that is prob true but I do want to address the part where you said that you don't want a teenager to romantic relationships. This girl has prob passed puberty so she has urges. I was otd and promiscuous as an older teen. I came from a really strict yeshivish family and I thought that frum married couples did the act and that's it. I thought that they couldn't kiss or cuddle or any of that. When I asked my mom point blank if couples were allowed to kiss, she got so uncomfortable and asked 'how do you think we have kids', I told Her that I knew but I thought that all touch without tachlis was assur. When I went off I had a lot of guy friends with benefits because I thought that if I ever go back I'm not going to be able to enjoy the bedroom in a halachically acceptable manner.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 2:12 am
But there is another issue here, not just which tapes, videos and books to watch and read.

The kid needs to know who is running her values and what the family stands for, and she needs to like and trust her parents.

It's not just about them trusting her, it's about her trusting them.

You have family values. The kid is an immature person of fourteen. She is moving away from your values. The task is to get some common ground here, so you keep her inside your family's values, even if she isn't perfect and sneaks icky books under the covers with a flashlight. Nobody's perfect. Sneaking around is part of life.

This might be a time to be both understanding, but also steadfastly reaffirming that you have the culture you have.

If you are going to become her chooser of stuff, stuff that you wouldn't have gone near, or been in the same room with, a year ago, then she is running things too much, perhaps. Who is she to make her mother read treif literature? She isn't the head of the house.

You might get some guidance from an experienced older rabbi or rebbetzin who has raised quite a few children and seen it all before.

That's what those people are there for. You don't have to go this alone.

Sometimes it's ok to be stuffy.

A parent is warm toward you but a parent is a parent, not a friend.

You can get friends anywhere, but only parents are parents. She doesn't need you to be her friend, she needs you to be her parent.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 6:26 am
Your goal should be to strengthen your relationship with her, get to know her, learn to like her, stop controlling her, earn her respect and trust.

If your relationship was pleasant before all this, then it's simply, not about you. She wants to do what she wants to do, to be a normal teen, not be a weirdo, as my one DD would say. My DD felt stupid that she knew nothing about the real world.

In fact, all my kids complained about being so sheltered. Teens just want to be normal. Reading Harry Potter, watching movies, wearing non-charedi clothing, all that is what they consider 'normal'.

Also, my kids explained that knowledge is tied to self-esteem. The more they know about things, the smarter they feel. The more you try to shelter them, the less they believe anything you have to say, and the less they trust you, and the more they turn to peers for education about the real world.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 8:36 am
I really honor what you say Chani8 but this real-world thing is over-rated and I think we should tell our kids that very plainly and often.

Real world fiddlesticks. Yes one and one is two, and rain is wet, but mostly people decide what is real for them. Harry Potter is no realer than anything else. Non-Haredi clothing isn't normal, it's non-Haredi clothing. Haredi clothing is your normal if you decide it is. You can't decide one and one is three, but you can decide what you consider normal clothes. And books and music and on and on.

Yes, the more they know about the mainstream culture (not normal, just numerically more numerous) the smarter they feel. That feeling is an illusion.

If being on board with the mainstream culture is normal, then it's time to convert out of our religion. We are a tiny religion and that cannot be normal, if normal means like most people. Most people aren't Jews. It's going to be hard to stay a Jew if you pay too much attention to normal.

I date from the days of the Sixties where being normal was very bad puppy. You were supposed to be original. I got so original I ended up BT which was about as weirdo as it gets around my family.

It did not kill me to be a weirdo.

I think disdain for normal is an important part of teaching kids the right way.

It is all very well to be normal as long as it's YOUR normal. Which you get to decide for yourself. I confess I hate passivity. Being normal can descend into nothing more than accepting what's on offer this week from the big entertainment factories. That's too passive for me.

I don't mean to be cranky, Chani8; I read your posts with admiration all the time.


Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Nov 26 2014, 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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morah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 9:43 am
I think the fact that this came with high school is good news. It is an indication that this is coming from normal teenage stuff and not some underlying issue. Teenagers are no longer little children. You need to trust them till you can't. Then they lose whatever privilege. They need to make their own choices. You need to make your preferred choice more appealing, not force it on them. You need to keep the lines of communication open- know what's going on in her life, communicate what's important to you so she's more likely to make better choices, discuss when things go wrong. She is responsible to choose but also responsible to own up when she messes up. You also need to pick your battles. Are unapproved novels the hill to die on? Or music? Or friends? Or academic achievement? Your call.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 10:38 am
So you are saying it's just being fourteen, whatever school you are in.

I am not entirely convinced of that and I think it's something about this school. The other kids there. Something. It sounds like a very big, not gradual, not piecemeal, change, and it sounds sudden, unless I misunderstand.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 12:10 pm
I think you are getting some really good insight here. I also think it will be helpful to speak to someone who knows you IRL, or who knows your community if not you personally. It will take chochma to find someone who's experienced in dealing with kids, is warm, nonjudgmental, etc. If I were in your position in my community, I can already think of some other parents I would turn to, a young woman (young enough to be my daughter) who works with kids "pre-risk" I.e. just regular girls to give them chizuk so they'll be happy ON the derech, people like that. Hatzlacha!
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morah




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 12:26 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
So you are saying it's just being fourteen, whatever school you are in.

I am not entirely convinced of that and I think it's something about this school. The other kids there. Something. It sounds like a very big, not gradual, not piecemeal, change, and it sounds sudden, unless I misunderstand.


High school is a big change. It brings new friends. It also brings a new sense of self. Teachers expect YOU to figure out how you're going to get your homework done despite your various other obligations- chores, extracurriculars, family time, friend time, and down time. On the one hand, it's a giddy feeling, but it also brings with it a sudden longing to be independent in EVERYTHING- which is obviously not possible. There's a reason the age of majority is 18 and not 14. But 14 is close enough to 18 that kids start to move toward that independence and parents need to let them. Within reason, of course.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 1:19 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I think you are getting some really good insight here. I also think it will be helpful to speak to someone who knows you IRL, or who knows your community if not you personally. It will take chochma to find someone who's experienced in dealing with kids, is warm, nonjudgmental, etc. If I were in your position in my community, I can already think of some other parents I would turn to, a young woman (young enough to be my daughter) who works with kids "pre-risk" I.e. just regular girls to give them chizuk so they'll be happy ON the derech, people like that. Hatzlacha!


Can't like this enough.

There's no one-size-fits-all, no substitute for someone who knows you IRL who can guide you in the nitty-gritty day-to-day issues that come with parenting teens. I'm grateful to have someone I consider a mentor in my life. Don't know how I'd survive as a parent-to-teen without her.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 1:30 pm
I think that in relating to a fourteen year old you should keep firmly in mind that nineteen is a mere five years away; it is almost here, and you should focus hard on what you want that kid to be like at nineteen. That is very different from focusing on handling them as they are this minute.

The rate of change is much faster now, and this is the crucial moment when the rest of their life will be determined in many ways.

I would see this as a time to be extremely communicative in a firm way. I would tell the kid exactly what my thinking was. THAT is treating the kid like a big girl.

I would say, approximately, "I see this treify stuff intrigues you. Here is the point of why I don't much like that. You see her over there? I don't want you to end up like that.

You see her over there? I would like you to be more like that. And here is why.

The first one is going to have this kind of life. (list stuff). The second one is going to have this: (list other stuff). It is my opinion that one of these things is not like the other.

Guess what. You and I are going to collaborate on you becoming a happy successful person of the kind our family thinks is better and more fun".

It is FINE to level with complete unvarnished candor, using appropriate vocabulary, about exactly what the issues are and what you are sculpting that child into and why.

You sure don't do that with a four year old, explaining what kind of nine year old you want them to be.

This is different time: the kid will understand that you are not treating them like a baby, not one bit.

This takes many careful talks, graded to the level of maturity of the kid, bit by bit.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 1:37 pm
OP here: Thanks to all the responders, again. Just FYI, the amother posts w/o OP at the beginning were not me. Dolly, homeschooling is not an option, for various reasons. I would switch schools in a second but she is very happy there. Our communication is still decent and I am treading very carefully so as not to have her start hiding things. She knows I am unhappy about these requests but is still talking openly to me, and I have been in touch with some people for guidance. I'm not aware of anyone who "keeps kids happily on the derech" though that sounds like what I need. I do check books online but she feels it's an insult that I do even that. I also have younger children so to just allow her to listen to music I consider inappropriate out loud is not so simple.
This is just a real challenge for me right now.
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Hatemywig




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 2:12 pm
I think it's important to differentiate between normative teen behavior and a feeling of being stifled religiously.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 2:23 pm
"She is very happy there"

SO WHAT? YOU are not very happy there, and last I checked, it's you paying the tuition bill.

NO, you can't allow what you feel is inappropriate music to be heard by the others.

She considers something you do "insulting"?

I can understand covert angry irritated glowering, but telling her parents to their FACES she considers something they are doing, to run their home their way, insulting?

Heeeewww! That would have got me into more trouble than I would have enjoyed at all. Cue her FATHER.

WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT IT, quietly look for another school and stick her in it.

If you can't think up a brief, father-enforced cover story, you lack imagination.

Every second you let this fester, the more entitled she will have been taught to feel.

Don't you know how to dole out love and fear? Love her to bits, and lay down the law, alternately.

Luckily, she is still only fourteen.

Next year it will be impossible, so start right away, I would say.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 2:35 pm
OP: Dolly, you are trying to be helpful and I appreciate it. But life is not black and white. There are problems in all schools, and if I simply pull her out now and put her in a place I now want her to be, there is no guarantee I won't have the same problems there. She is in a good, established school, not some fly-by-night place that just sprung up. And I won't make up a story and lie to her, and neither will her father.
Dealing with teenagers is very tricky and if I thought just laying down the law would do the job, trust me, I would do it. There's a reason there's so much rebellion today, and it's what I am trying to avoid by keeping her feelings very much in consideration. And yes, she's allowed to feel insulted - she's a teenager. Few teens would simply nod quietly and acquiesce because their parents said so.
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spikta




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 2:57 pm
I can't weigh in on the chinuch issues since I don't have experience with this age, but I might have some ideas for fantasy books that are relatively clean.

David Eddings comes to mind, I remember his books being pretty PG, but catchy. It's an adventure and you want to know what happens next, and there's a lot of funny banter between the characters. It's in an imaginary world with different gods and magic, if that's a problem then steer clear. But to me it wasn't like I was actually going to believe in these gods or that it was in any way a challenge to my faith. Lehefech. It makes the notion of many gods with different powers that argue among themselves look a bit silly. There was a bit of romantic tension there, but nothing actually happened, just the boy and the girl bantered a bit and you know that actually they like each other and at the end they get married.
He has several series with multiple books, all in this world. Maybe try and find one and see if you're ok with it? If so you've got the five Belgariad books plus the five Mallorean books, so that should keep her busy for a while. He has other books and series too, but I haven't read them.

Next idea - Brandon Sanderson. My husband and I read the Mistborn series and really liked it. We were always discussing it, trying to figure out what would happen next, where the story was going... really great. There are less gods involved (only a bit at the end of the third book), it's more complex magic powers in a strange dystopic world. Again, pretty PG, though there are battles and some dying. No graphic gory description, but it happens, and generally the books are a bit dark. Less funny banter and comic relief (though there is some). There is some romance, but more on the level of Victorian courtship, that leads to marriage (spoiler...) also it's really a pretty marginal part of the book.

Sanderson has a few other books besides Mistborn. One that recently came out is The Rithmatist, which is defined as YA (not fantasy like his others). Although it isn't as epic as mistborn, I liked it, and it's also totally clean. No romance whatsoever, and no one actually dies (again spoiler...). If you're looking for something to start with and test the waters I would recommend The Rithmatist.

How are you with Harry Potter?

Last thing that comes to mind is Orson Scott Card. Namely Ender's Game which is an amazing book, and it's sequels which are OK. No romance that I can think of in Ender's Game, but there is some violence - some fights the protagonist gets into. Some of the sequels have some romance, but nothing graphic or inappropriate if I recall correctly.

Hope this helped.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 3:18 pm
spikta wrote:
I can't weigh in on the chinuch issues since I don't have experience with this age, but I might have some ideas for fantasy books that are relatively clean.

David Eddings comes to mind, I remember his books being pretty PG, but catchy. It's an adventure and you want to know what happens next, and there's a lot of funny banter between the characters. It's in an imaginary world with different gods and magic, if that's a problem then steer clear. But to me it wasn't like I was actually going to believe in these gods or that it was in any way a challenge to my faith. Lehefech. It makes the notion of many gods with different powers that argue among themselves look a bit silly. There was a bit of romantic tension there, but nothing actually happened, just the boy and the girl bantered a bit and you know that actually they like each other and at the end they get married.
He has several series with multiple books, all in this world. Maybe try and find one and see if you're ok with it? If so you've got the five Belgariad books plus the five Mallorean books, so that should keep her busy for a while. He has other books and series too, but I haven't read them.

Next idea - Brandon Sanderson. My husband and I read the Mistborn series and really liked it. We were always discussing it, trying to figure out what would happen next, where the story was going... really great. There are less gods involved (only a bit at the end of the third book), it's more complex magic powers in a strange dystopic world. Again, pretty PG, though there are battles and some dying. No graphic gory description, but it happens, and generally the books are a bit dark. Less funny banter and comic relief (though there is some). There is some romance, but more on the level of Victorian courtship, that leads to marriage (spoiler...) also it's really a pretty marginal part of the book.

Sanderson has a few other books besides Mistborn. One that recently came out is The Rithmatist, which is defined as YA (not fantasy like his others). Although it isn't as epic as mistborn, I liked it, and it's also totally clean. No romance whatsoever, and no one actually dies (again spoiler...). If you're looking for something to start with and test the waters I would recommend The Rithmatist.

How are you with Harry Potter?

Last thing that comes to mind is Orson Scott Card. Namely Ender's Game which is an amazing book, and it's sequels which are OK. No romance that I can think of in Ender's Game, but there is some violence - some fights the protagonist gets into. Some of the sequels have some romance, but nothing graphic or inappropriate if I recall correctly.

Hope this helped.


Thank you!!! This is extremely helpful. Keep them coming!
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 3:23 pm
I used to love the Chronicles of Narnia. I know some say that they have Christian overtones, but I never saw them that way as a young teen. Still stayed frum, married yeshivish DH, etc....they were, overall, pretty clean.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 4:53 pm
Quote:
Chronicles of Narnia
I may be confusing with something else, but is there some explicit stuff in there? (I seem to remember a scene with a girl and a lion... could have been a different book though. Yeah, probably....Nobody was censoring my reading material. More's the pity.)
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November




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 5:07 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
So you are saying it's just being fourteen, whatever school you are in.

I am not entirely convinced of that and I think it's something about this school. The other kids there. Something. It sounds like a very big, not gradual, not piecemeal, change, and it sounds sudden, unless I misunderstand.

I agree with Dolly. Are the girls in her class generally looking/behaving/dressing the way you'd like your daughter to look/dress/behave? If not, you really can't expect her to swim upstream. She's going to want to do what her friends do. Is there a better school option for her?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 26 2014, 6:39 pm
November wrote:
I agree with Dolly. Are the girls in her class generally looking/behaving/dressing the way you'd like your daughter to look/dress/behave? If not, you really can't expect her to swim upstream. She's going to want to do what her friends do. Is there a better school option for her?


It is a Bais Yaakov, but like all schools there are different crowds. That is my concern, that she has made friends with the wrong girls. But it's not so simple to switch her now. The hanhalah is aware of my concerns though, and seems supportive. They don't want these things going on in their school either.
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