Does your shul have babysitting for the yomim noraim?

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Sep 20 2014, 3:53 pm

freidasima wrote:

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FS, you are almost my mother's age. Many women I know here in israel, in different communities (all MO, some more right than others) prostrate themselves completely. Davka the younger women dont (I never do as I have a bad knee and it would be horrible for me to try and get up)

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I have certainly seen women bow low in oleinu but have never seen a woman in shul prostrate themselves flat out on the floor like men do. The men kneel down and then stretch out flat on the floor, face and forehead touching the floor body flat on the floor. I have never in my life seen a woman do that, not in shul in England, in the USA or in EY on the yomim noraim.

Well I have seen it, here in Israel and in america.

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Yes of course we have shul from 7:30 to 2. Doesn't everyone? The 2 includes mincha gedola which begins sometime between 1:15 to 1:30 depending on the chazzan. Don't you have chazzonus? With us it's usually shachris 7:30-9:45, Kriyas hatorah etc. and kiddush and shofar until 11:15 and musaf from 11:15 - 1:15 or 1:30 depending on the chazzan.

In israel I have only heard of such long davenings in yeshivot. My brother who went to ramat gan hesder yeshiva told me about a loooong davening, but otherwise, most shuls, regular shuls, why in the world would it take that long? And of course we have chazzanut. But that doesnt mean its slower, it just means the actual tefilot are beautiful.

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And yes, in my world most women only go to shul on the holidays unless you are talking about very young girls and very old women, the great grandmothers. The junior high and high school age young single girls go to shul Friday nite but never on shabbos day around here, shabbos morning only the very old ladies go - all the rest of us are either taking care of small children or grandchildren! It's only after you are a great grandmother that you don't have a house full of grandchildren around shabbos morning to help your daughters or daughters in law care for.

I have to say that I dont understand this either. I am thinking of my few adoptive families that I had when I made aliyah single and would go for shabbat. The mothers were all your age range and they all went to shul, religiously, every week. And so did their teen age and young adult daughters. it just sounds like a very strange (unique) shul. Never saw this before. Anywhere.

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My single daughters never went to shul and I never went to shul during the year...nor did any of the women I know. What for? Women don't count for a minyan boruch Hashem, so why in the world should we go to shul? My husband always davens at the 7 AM shabbos minyan in the beis medrish and there isn't even an ezras noshim there! There are MO kehillas and more shtark MO and I've always been part of the more shtark. We are NOT feminist in these shuls and are very happy to leave the minyan going to the men. We have more than enough work with taking care of kids and home, aren't mechuyav to daven even and are yotzi with kriyas shma because our avodas Hashem is taking care of our children, our homes, our husbands so that they can daven, learn etc. I know that you aren't used to it but think more along the lines of charedi and more shtark women, many in my generation, although MO, are like that.

FS you are tlking MO shtark. OK, one of my adopted families was just that. Exactly that. The mother woke the daughter for davening every shabbat. I never heard of this and your outlook on this is very strange for an MO women, whatever generation.

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Abroad it is different because shul is the center of the Jewish community and so women go much more. Here there is no Jewish "community" like there is abroad nor is there a need for one. Thus going to shul doesn't have that "demonstrative" and "performative" role that it does abroad, it's "brutto=netto" davening (or gossping and that I can CERTAINLY do without) and the davening I can do just as well at home at my own time.

Once again, I am not only talking about abroad. Any place where I have ever gone to shul here in Israel, so have the wives and daughters. Ive been up north and in the merkaz and in jeruslem. Never have I experienced a community like you write. Nowhere.

etky

Sat, Sep 20 2014, 4:32 pm

Another avid shul goer here.
There was no baby sitting when the kids were little (still isn't) so I sat out a good number of years aside from going in just to hear shofar and for yizkor.
Aside from those years, I've been a shul person my entire life, from early childhood on.
That's one of the things I love about the high holiday service. I feel that the prayers and the tunes form an (almost) unbroken link to my earliest past. Many -not all - of the tunes that our kehilla sing are those that I remember from my childhood but the words of the prayers themselves resonate so much more as I get older and go through the various stages of life. I love how that all comes together in shul.
Sanguine - Mare Kohen is also one of my favorites. It offers us a glimpse into something that has been lost to us since the destruction - the emotional high experienced by the people and the Kohen Gadol at the conclusion of the avoda of Yom Kippur during the time of the Temple.
About the bowing down - everyone in our kehilla does it (not flat out prostration - just going down on one's knees) except for me and the really old ladies. My excuse is that since my knee surgery 10 years ago, I don't have total flexion in my right knee. Even in exercise class I can't really do that position- certainly not on the bare floor. So I hate that part of the davening b/c I feel like the 'only one left standing' . IIRC in our community in America women did not bow all the way down but here it seems to be done in the MO shuls that I have attended.

freidasima

Sat, Sep 20 2014, 5:15 pm

Shabbat, the fact that you haven't experienced it doesn't make it "strange", just different than what you know. And there are a lot of shuls like mine all over the country where very few women are in shul on shabbos but lots on yuntif and of course RH and YK.

I am really surprised that all the older women in your shul totally prostrate themselves on the floor Shabbat, I have seen what Etky says, that women go down to their knees but never face down on the floor. In fact just like I wrote before, I remember being taught and my daughters were also taught that it is not considered modest for a woman to do this, nor is there any need for a woman to do this. Maybe my shul is more charedi like or more old fashioned, the same way women do not dance with the torah or dance at all on simchas torah but just watch the men from the balcony, but again, I've been to many shuls like this in EY.

As for davening long davenings, it exists all over the country just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist you know! Second (not hashkomo) shabbos davening in our shul on shabbos morning begins at 8:30 during the summer and goes until almost noon. What do you mean "why in the world would it take that long?" What a strange question. Because it does!

It's really not nice for you to keep saying "strange" "strange" "strange" Shabbat. It would really be a lot nicer during chodesh elul to stop the value judgements and just say "different than what I know".

Sanguine

Sat, Sep 20 2014, 6:58 pm

freidasima wrote:

Shabbat, I wrote that "in my world"...etc. remember that I'm a very different generation than you are. And indeed in "my world" women do not prostrate themselves on RH and YK or ever. We were taught that it is not considered modest for women to do so, and thus we do not.

I have certainly seen women bow low in oleinu but have never seen a woman in shul prostrate themselves flat out on the floor like men do. The men kneel down and then stretch out flat on the floor, face and forehead touching the floor body flat on the floor. I have never in my life seen a woman do that, not in shul in England, in the USA or in EY on the yomim noraim.

Could be the feminists do it but I have never davened in a feminist shul, never davened in a shul where women dance with the torah on simchas torah and never davened in a shul where women dance at all! My world, as I said, is made up of late middle age and older women mostly and the young people do not daven around here for yuntif usually.

Yes of course we have shul from 7:30 to 2. Doesn't everyone? The 2 includes mincha gedola which begins sometime between 1:15 to 1:30 depending on the chazzan. Don't you have chazzonus? With us it's usually shachris 7:30-9:45, Kriyas hatorah etc. and kiddush and shofar until 11:15 and musaf from 11:15 - 1:15 or 1:30 depending on the chazzan.

And yes, in my world most women only go to shul on the holidays unless you are talking about very young girls and very old women, the great grandmothers. The junior high and high school age young single girls go to shul Friday nite but never on shabbos day around here, shabbos morning only the very old ladies go - all the rest of us are either taking care of small children or grandchildren! It's only after you are a great grandmother that you don't have a house full of grandchildren around shabbos morning to help your daughters or daughters in law care for.

My single daughters never went to shul and I never went to shul during the year...nor did any of the women I know. What for? Women don't count for a minyan boruch Hashem, so why in the world should we go to shul? My husband always davens at the 7 AM shabbos minyan in the beis medrish and there isn't even an ezras noshim there! There are MO kehillas and more shtark MO and I've always been part of the more shtark. We are NOT feminist in these shuls and are very happy to leave the minyan going to the men. We have more than enough work with taking care of kids and home, aren't mechuyav to daven even and are yotzi with kriyas shma because our avodas Hashem is taking care of our children, our homes, our husbands so that they can daven, learn etc. I know that you aren't used to it but think more along the lines of charedi and more shtark women, many in my generation, although MO, are like that.

Abroad it is different because shul is the center of the Jewish community and so women go much more. Here there is no Jewish "community" like there is abroad nor is there a need for one. Thus going to shul doesn't have that "demonstrative" and "performative" role that it does abroad, it's "brutto=netto" davening (or gossping and that I can CERTAINLY do without) and the davening I can do just as well at home at my own time.

Don't know where you live and I am your generation. I always went to shul growing up in NY and I always went here no matter where I lived, and my sisters and friends scattered around also go to shul Shabbat. It's more common for girls to go Friday night instead of Shabbat morning in Israel. But my daughters always went both as do their friends (unless they're tired and lazy). I don't know where you live (and, yes I know, you've lived everywhere in Israel) but if your shul is so unwelcoming to you, find another shul! We have the hashkama minyan, the main shul with the chazan, and the breakoff faster non-chazan minyan. All ages attend shul. This isn't the only place I've lived. Every community or city has a choice of shuls. And all the MO women all ages I know go to shuls.
I've seen many women go down in many shuls for the avoda. In my shul in America the women didnt but in my husband's they did

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Women don't count for a minyan boruch Hashem, so why in the world should we go to shul?

Here I understand what's going on - There are many woman who feel miffed by women's place in Orthodox Jewry. They sit behind a mechitza while men hold all the respectable positions and run the show. I really shouldn't have gotten in this. You have your reasons for feeling like this about shul but everything you're saying is based on your personal problems with shul.

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Yes of course we have shul from 7:30 to 2. Doesn't everyone?

NO!! We usually have about 4 hours. Where do you live!!!

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My husband always davens at the 7 AM shabbos minyan in the beis medrish and there isn't even an ezras noshim there!

Why do you go to a shul without an Ezrat Nashim?? You don'thave to go to the same shul as your husband, and many people with young children the man goes to Hashkama so that the wife can go later when he gets home. And many people go to separate shuls.

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We are NOT feminist in these shuls and are very happy to leave the minyan going to the men. We have more than enough work with taking care of kids and home,

Sounds like feminist is exactly what you are. You feel that shul belongs to men because it makes you feel inferior and you can't do anything about it. You're very bitter.

FS - Not everyone likes going to shul but you are so angry about shul. I'm not going to argue your feelings but everything you said is incorrect. Women do go to shul. Women do enjoy hearing kriyat hatorah. Women are happy to participate in the "male led" Tfillot. Batei Knesset have nice comfortable respectable Ezrat Nashims. Where do you live?? Your husband goes to a shul that is good for him. Find one that is good for you. Or don't - I'm not here to "convert you". But don't spew out facts that MO women don't go to shul (and don't bow down to the floor for the avoda). I know many many MO communities in America and here in EY where women go every Shabbat to shul and their daughters do too cause they learned to do so from their mothers

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Sep 21 2014, 1:36 am

freidasima wrote:

Oh FS, im sorry, but some of what you write just sounds so not plausible. You say you are MO, yes, shtark MO, but MO. And you say that your daughters learned that it is not tzanua to prostrate? Why in the world? They are in the women's section. No men see them. And I have gone to MO schools my whole life, some more shtark and some more to the left and never have I ever learned something like that. How can something be no modest.....in the women's section?????

your shul goes from 8:30 till 12 on a regular shabbat? how? what are they doing for so long? And yes, I have never heard of that in Israel.Sorry. Again, it does not sound believable to me. What can I say. 3 1/2 hours to daven? In israel? Even if the rav gives a drasha. Ive never heard of such a thing, again, unless you are davening in a yehiva. Like I mentioned (I think) my brother went to yeshivat ramat gan for hesder. I could believe that a place like that would have davening take a loooong time, but a regular shul? ANd you said that you usually dont even go, so whats up with that?

freidasima

Sun, Sep 21 2014, 7:38 am

Wow Sang, sounds to me more like you are projecting your own feelings than actually reading what I am writing.

What is so hard to understand? I think it is wonderful not to go to shul, not to be part of a minyan and I think it is a marvelous priviledge that my avodas hashem is taking care of children, of my husband, preparing food, cleaning the house for him and my family etc. That is the pinnacle of my personal desires and those of many women, why can't you get that? We are not "angry", we don't find a need to daven betzibur, we are happy not to have to be counted in a minyan and get a "ptor" for getting up and having to go to shul daily or even on shabbos, and there are also women, like, me, where it just doesn't speak to me. Why does this bother you so much? Who cares? As Grace writes so nicely "different strokes". Not "better" or "worse", not "angry" or "happy", just DIFFERENT.

I and many MO women both in EY and abroad that you may just not know (but I sure know a lof of us!) are like that. We don't need shul. It is not our tradition for women to go to shul and it doesn't speak to us. We go during the yomin noraim and some go during the shalosh regolim but other than that no thank you. We are very happy staying home, davening at home when we can if the kids are old enough and if not, we are POTUR BORUCH HASHEM from tefila other than saying shma and everyone can manage that one sentence once a day even if you have quadruplets!

Sang you obviously have never come across women like me so you can't get my head. We are very gendered. Shul is for men. Minyan is for men. Housekeeping is for women. We are not the women who want our husbands to clean and cook with us or change diapers on a regular basis. It does not bother us the least that there is a genedered difference in our lives, just the opposite. It is a "seder olam" that we love, that our mothers and grandmothers and great grandmothers and so on had and we find it TERRIFIC. And yes, there are lots of us only we don't usually talk about it because of all the "rah rah feminists" like you who belittle us. We can be doctors and lawyers and professors and actuaries and CEOs in our professional life, and in our personal life we are totally gendered. And it works for us thank you quite well and we love it like that. Not for you? No one is asking you to live like that but please have the decency not to belittle our choices. It's like a working outside the home woman belittling a SAHM for her believing that is the best life in the world for HER. No one is telling you not to go to shul and bow, but there are loads of us who don't go to shul and don't bow.

And before anyone asks for sources, here is just one source:
http://www.dinonline.org/2013/.....down/
read what is written there about women's bowing:
" the custom of many is that women do not bow to the ground at all on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur – though some women do bow down (see Rivevos Ephraim 3:421:2)."

BTW our shul of course has an ezras noshim, and it is used for the main minyan at 8:30 but the hashkomo minyan where my husband and at least 100 other men daven uses the beis medrish which of course has no ezras noshim and none of the wives of those men, just like me, have any desire or intention to go to shul during the year on shabbos. Hard for you to fathom, huh? Well just to give you a short list of twenty women in my immediate circle who do not go to shul either in EY or abroad on a regular shabbos you have me, my three daughters, my two sisters in law, their mothers, their three sisters and sisters in law, my four second cousins, at least five frum women in my building, my REBBETZIN (!), and my late mother's three best friends who are still alive and their daughters...and that covers, let's see, four countries (USA, EY, England, Australia) and at least eight different shuls that we attend on RH/YK and shalosh regolim.

So let's try maybe to be tolerant of things that you haven't seen or don't know and maybe understand that one of the reasons that we don't discuss our preferences is because of reactions like yours which are not only ridiculous - projecting as if we are "angry" - as you really don't understand our head - but can also be hurtful...just ask any SAHM who has been belittled by working outside the home mothers and told "you really hate what you do but you just aren't aware of it, raise your consciousness"...THAT is ridiculous and distasteful.

Respect our choices and don't try to second guess us. We respect your choices but don't want them pushed on us.

freidasima

Sun, Sep 21 2014, 7:48 am

Shabbat. Of course I don't go on shabbos but we live right near the shul and see everyone coming back and of course sometimes if there is a shiur right after shul my husband gives it and he knows when the second minyan is over so he knows when to come back...and dh has been to the second minyan more than once bichlalal if there was some reason etc. so he tells me exactly how long the davening is, what takes so long etc. Are you trying to say that he is lying to me? That all the people we see passing in front of the building coming back from shul at noon are actually coming back from a secret party after shul? Maybe a clandestine movie? C'mon get real.

There are lots of shuls that go so long, you may not know them personally but there are now davenings that daven very long, have a drush in the middle, sometimes a small kiddush/lechayim after kriyas hatorah for those who can't go so long (after all if they don't eat a mezonos and only have water or coffee before davening it's a long time to go, especially in the summer heat).

You know? Just because you haven't seen or heard something doesn't mean it doesn't exist! And just BTW Yeshivat Ramat Gan goes even longer, as do some of the davenings here in Yerushalayim with a lot of singing...try explaining to someone why a friday nite service at Yakar can take two and a half hours when in another shul it is 65 to 70 minutes tops...that's more than TWICE AS LONG! And yes, it exists....

Sanguine

Sun, Sep 21 2014, 9:12 am

FS - I don't know why you are so anti shul and why you don't go. Just stop sounding like you represent MO women. I don't know if you're really MO or if you live in Yerushalayim or Ramat Gan but I don't care. But you are wrong saying that MO women don't go to shul. That's part of Modern Orthodoxy (don't give me a history lesson - my grandmother z"l who was born in 1900 in America always went to shul in the young Israel). Modern Orthodoxy keeps all halachot but lets women feel more equal to men. That's modern life!! Some people love a long davening with a chazan. I hate that, so there are choices for everyone. All halachically correct. We used to daven in the main minyan in our shul (a little shlepped out). One day I noticed that my husband sits alone in shul. We have 3 sons. They all went to the 9:00 faster minyan. So we decided to all go to that minyan. If your RH minyan is 7 hours and you're counting lightbulbs. Choose a shul that is more suited for you. Let your husband daven in the Yeshiva and you go somewhere else (then you'll get home early enough to make the salad Wink

). You won't sit next to your husband anyway so don't go to his shul.

MO isn't Yeshiva minyans. It's choosing the comfortable level for you. If you don't want to go, don't. But stop claiming that the MO woman's place is at home making salad for her family - especially if your children are grown. I used to stay home when my children were small but one day I realized that even the youngest was going off to shul with DH. So how long was it taking me to set the table? Staying home isn't MO. MO women are welcome in shuls. (I'm not saying Chareidi aren't but MO shuls are different). You can't generalize about MO. Just like some MO women wear long skirts and cover all their hair, while some MO women wear bikinis on beach vacations, there is a big range of MO shuls. You can't generalize. If anything,your experiences is the exception.

etky

Sun, Sep 21 2014, 12:15 pm

I've always belonged to communities (MO/DL) where women attended services on Shabbat, at least the morning if not both Friday night and Shabbat morning. Of course, many women with young kids aren't regulars on Shabbat, though some definitely do make the effort to come.
This applies both to communities I am familiar with in the US and in Israel.
I don't think shul attendance/non-attendance has anything to do with feminism. I consider myself a bit of a feminist and some of the practices that could easily be more egalitarian in my minyan but aren't (not that we haven't tried to change things....) annoy me. This does not prevent me from coming to shul. every Shabbat. Every now and then I will attend a women's reading or something at a more egalitarian shul in another neighborhood to satisfy that need.
I go to shul primarily because of an emotional need to do so - shul enhances my Shabbat. I can't imagine not welcoming in Shabbat with Lecha Dodi or not hearing kriyat ha-Torah and the haftorah on Shabbat morning. I also look forward to the drasha. We have wonderful, knowledgable speakers in our shul and most of the divrei Torah are very thought provoking.
In shul on Friday night I feel myself mentally unwinding from the week and entering a different spiritual plane. It is a transition that for me would not happen as easily, if at all, davening at home.