Do you live in Israel and have a cleaner?!

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Forum -> Household Management -> Cleaning & Laundry

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amother

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 2:51 pm

I live in Israel. I am a sahm and I have one baby. I have a cleaner who is supposed to come every Friday. She's supposed to come 4 hours before Shabbos until Shabbos. She doesn't always show up but she never lets me know. I find out by it being an hour after she's supposed to come and she's not here. On those weeks I clean everything myself. I use her bec she washes my windows and behind my fridge and bec dd is impossible on Fridays.

Frumdoc

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 3:36 pm

Well, I live in chu"l, so clearly one of those lowly beings who wouldn't merit living in EY, but personally I hate cleaning, I love having a clean house, I love my job and I'm good at it, I do an awful lot of good in my chosen career and a lot more than I would do cleaning my kitchen floor or dusting the bookshelves.

So I happily pay someonetto do the menial tasks for me while I do more meaningful work. I prefer to spend my precious time at home making a meal from fresh ingredients than scrubbing the bathtub.

Or listen to a shiur, learn some Torah, talk to my dh or do some chesed work.

We all have limited time, and I respect those who feel they can spend that time more meaningfully with their children, their husbands or doing something of value, rather than cleaning.

You don't get an automatic level up on your kedusha score for doing your own sponja or ironing. Neither do you get a downgrade in kedusha for outsourcing it.

Stop making moral judgements on people's lifestyle choices around the unimportant issues, like cleaning, and start appreciating the good they get done in their time you think would be better spent on their hands and knees scrubbing the floor.

There is nothing inherently worthy about driving yourself into the ground doing the daily grind of housekeeping for a large family when you could be the queen, the leader of your little world directing the workflow while ensuring the individuals are loved, cared for and nurtured, and grow spiritually, emotionally and physically. That is the role of the mother, to nurture her children into adulthood, not to turn herself into a slave for them to walk all over.

Inverted snobbery, that is all it is.

Frumdoc

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 3:48 pm

Just want to add, of course if you have kids at home your house gets a lot messier and needd more cleaning.

I see no reason that a SAHM, who has full time mom responsibilities, and a lot more cleaning to get done, as well as the job of bringing up the children and caring for all of them, should be a housekeeper without help as well.

She is busy, has a demanding job looking after the children who don't do "lunch breaks", rest room breaks and are a 24/7 responsibility, so why on earth should she have to scrub floors if she doesn't want ot and can afford not to?

Being a wiped out shmatter with chronic sleep deprivation and a triggerpoint temper is not what defines a good jewish wife and mother, and is not the only pathway to a place in heaven.

Scrabble123

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 4:03 pm

I'm just wondering if OP feels the same way about running water, air conditioners, heaters, new clothing when one can afford it, owning a house, giving children gifts, jewelry (even as an engagement present), etc. ?

Also to the amother who said she doesn't get people on government programs with cleaning help: honestly, basic cleaning help is really not a luxury for some. Some people would not manage otherwise. I sometimes see my newly married neighbors with cleaning help, but maybe she isn't a competent cleaner (or maybe she is spoiled), but for a mother with children, cleaning help is in no way, shape, or form a luxury (unless we're talking about a live in nanny).

Barbara

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 4:20 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

Actually, it is a luxury. That doesn't make it a bad thing. But, absent physical limitations that do not permit any adult member of the family to clean, then there is no NECESSITY of cleaning help.

It doesn't do our community any good to start defining luxuries as necessities, to say "oh, gosh, everyone NEEDS household help."

If you can afford it, or if you are willing to sacrifice other things for it, great. But that doesn't change the fact that its a luxury.

(And I will confess to very mixed feelings about families that rely upon the government to support them, and then have household help on a regular basis. Its somehow different from an occasional splurge.)

I'll also quibble with your comment that having a live-in nanny is a luxury. For many people its not. Round about here, day care and after school care ends at 5:30, 6 at the latest. Neither my husband nor I work in fields that allow us to leave before 5:30, which we would need to do to pick up at that time. If you have the room, live-in help is usually less expensive, and more reliable, than sitters who have their own homes.

ETA -- running water is not a luxury. Heat is not a luxury in areas in which the temperatures fall below 50 degrees. Clothing in and of itself is not a luxury, although there are certainly luxury clothing items. Air conditioning may or may not be a luxury Gifts may or may not be a luxury, but jewelry certainly is. Shelter is not a luxury, but home ownerhsip -- and certainly the types of homes many people here deem standard -- may be.

amother

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 4:37 pm

I dont think this has anything to do with what country you live in, rather your financial situation and the way you were brought up. I live in the U.S. (specifically NY!) and I dont have cleaning help. And I work. My mother never had any cleaning help either (still doesn't). I find insulting that people think that everyone in America are rich spoiled brats. Not that having cleaning help makes you spoiled- if you can afford it then I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with it. But the whole attitude that Americans are living wealthy luxurious lives while you're roughing it up in Israel is just wrong.

Scrabble123

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 5:54 pm

Barbara wrote:

I was referring to a live-in nanny while on government programs as being a luxury, but you may be right that some may not consider it a luxury, and I cannot really decide what is a luxury for anyone other than myself.

I know someone who only buys her youngest children one outfit. She washes clothing each and every day. I would venture to say that that is abnormal which is why have 6 outfits is not a luxury. We live in a society that is quite "luxurious" when compared to that of the past and naturally to the rest of the world. I think that having a certain amount of cleaning help is standard, and I therefore do not think that a person receiving government benefits should be embarrassed to have a cleaning lady once a week before Shabbos or as an occasional sludge depending on their individual situations.

As I'm sure you know by now, I'm single and do not yet have children. I live in an apartment that I clean myself, but I do sometimes pay for cleaning help. I consider that a real luxury because I definitely could do it myself, but I just enjoy having someone else do it for me. I give myself that present, with money that I worked for and earned myself, before sukkos or chanukah (but not before pesach when everyone else needs it and no one qualified is available for a short while).

If someone has peeling paint and is being upset emotionally by the look of the paint, scraping and repainting is not a luxury. I guess you could argue that validating emotions and emotional disturbances is something new and luxurious, but I feel that today it is a necessity. That is maybe where we disagree.

You stated, "It doesn't do our community any good to start defining luxuries as necessities, to say 'oh, gosh, everyone NEEDS household help.' If you can afford it, or if you are willing to sacrifice other things for it, great. But that doesn't change the fact that its a luxury." I actually agree with this comment, and it is making me begin to reconsider my words. Still, I believe that some level of cleaning help is a necessity to many people, while above that level would be considered a luxury. People on government aid (who indeed do qualify), should be allowed to have help 2 hours a week if that is what is going to keep that family's children in an environment that is even half ways clean.

I recently went to an open house and what I saw inside appalled me. The sink had a terrible smell, there were spider webs around the house, dust all over, sticky floors, mold all over the bathroom etc. I don't know if that woman had cleaning help or not, but I wonder why/if it is not illegal to raise children like that!?!

amother

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 6:18 pm

amother wrote:

Posting anon as I know I'll get screamed at for stating my opinion.

I live in Israel. I live in a fairly Anglo community, where some husbands work and some are in kollel. I barely know ANYONE who has a cleaner, let alone a 'nanny'. Yes, its due to financial reasons and people can't afford it, but almost every woman I know works at least half day and they would never dream of hiring a cleaner. I just find these threads of being a SAHM with a full time nanny or having a cleaner for 21 (!) hours a week a complete joke. These women have kids, and cook and do laundry and clean. Its hard, but that's life. I feel like some of these women with nannies should come to Israel and see what kind of life people live here. Yes, they've chosen it, but it just seems to me like having a nanny is completely spoilt. I have one friend who's a SAHM and has a cleaner twice a week. Yes, I think of her as 'lazy'. And if she complains about finances, I think I know where she could cut down. No, she doesn't have 8 or even 3 kids, or medical issues.

I know I'll get bashed by this post. I'm not american, I'm not wealthy, and the thought of a nanny is very foreign to me. I grew up with a cleaner once a week (my parents both worked full time) and can't help but think these women are just lazy and spoilt. Sorry, that's my opinion.

I didnt even finish the first page so I apologize if this was already addressed.

Re:the bolded- Can you prove it? Have you seen medical record from all members of the family?

Tweedy

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 7:10 pm

amother wrote:

OP here.

In answer to your questions, yes- of course I post under amother. Do I really want to get skinned alive?

I think most of you (especially the israeli mothers here) are missing my point. Half the threads on this site seem to be about sahm with cleaners and nannies, yet most people I know don't have either and work a lot longer. Of course if you work and have 6 kids I have no issues with you having a cleaner. Even you have 2 kids and work I would understand cleaning help.

But a sahm with a nanny? That seems pretty excessive. And all of you are so desperate to give excuses- but I highly doubt that every sahm with help has a mental issues, or medical issue. Whatever, it's my opinion- I was brought up to work hard, and I just can't understand these people who need cleaning help and DON'T WORK. To me, yes, it's pure laziness. I see how all the women around me live- they get up at the crack of dawn, go to work, come home, pick up their kids from daycare, shlep to the stores with their kids (they don't have a car) then make supper. And guess what? They don't have cleaners, and they somehow manage. Are they are superwomen? Maybe. But this is the society I live in, so can you blame for looking at these sahm with full time nannies or sahm who have cleaners 8 hours a day and feeling like they're a little spoilt?

You can think I'm bitter, or jealous, or whatever you like. We're not a kollel family, and we could afford a cleaner once a week if I really wanted. But I can't bear the thought of throwing money away or something I could do myself. Personally, I'd be embarrassed.

Ok, bashing may now continue Very Happy

Oh you have no issue with someone working and having cleaning help, remind me to ask for your permission next time I feel like spoiling myself with cleaning help. On the other hand though did you ask for my permission for living in Israel? For many people including me it's considered being a luxury
I've got friends crying and longing for Israel and yet they say they won't be able to feed their families here and how spoilt you are fo living in our holy land before moshiach, and trust me many people are jealous of you!

You were raised to be hard working ? Wish instead you were raised with the middos of dlkz, ahavas yisroel, being besameach behelko, etc you certainly aren't happy with you lot as otherwise it wouldn't bug you how others spend their money, maybe put your hard work into good middos and cheesed , if you are so drained and don't have time for it, we'll maybe get a cleaner once in while, to me it doesn't look like you are actually managing,

amother

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 10:09 pm

Op is Israeli. This is a site for Anglo amothers. There is a difference in mentality between American and Israeli regarding numerous subject. One of them is having a housekeeper. Israelis are tougher and work much harder at home. It doesn't mean they are better. The Anglo are used to a more comfortable life. The Anglo are using the spare time to advance their family quality of life in many ways. Op you shouldn't just come here and accuse everybody that they are spoiled.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 10:20 pm

amother wrote:

Are you living in Israel? Do you know this fact about Israelis as opposed to other anglos (here is a news flash: not only american are anglos. Anglos are from many many countries. OK, sorry, that just always bothers me) that Israelis dont take house cleaners? I think you are very very mistaken. Very.
Comfortable life? Again, maybe you know one population in Israel, but I know some very very comfortable Israelis. Living in big houses, owning boats. Comfort is the word. And I am sure that they have cleaning help.
And what spare time?
Also, where does it say that this site is only for anglos? There are posters on this site that are definitely not. There are definitely non english speakers on this site.

m in Israel

Wed, Sep 17 2014, 11:14 pm

amother wrote:

Actually, OP specifically said that she lives in a very Anglo community, and it seems clear she is talking about Anglos who have chosen to live in Israel, not native born Israelis (she even specifies that it is their choice to live like this.) And many of us other amothers who live in both Anglo and native Israel areas have already stated that her premise is not true -- there are plenty of both Anglos in Israel and native born Israelis who hire cleaning help.

Actually, cleaning is a very good job here, as the pay rate is pretty high compared to general salaries in other fields. So there obviously is enough of a demand to keep that rate up.

Sanguine

Thu, Sep 18 2014, 12:19 am

I joined this discussion a day late (wasn't here yesterday). I don't understand this thread. OP - Get off of Imamother if you can't handle reading about people who have more (financially) than you. If you're having a hard time dealing financially come to LII and we'll discuss costs and how we live here. I just don't get why you started this thread. You don't live in America. It's a very different life here. (I know that my niece in America worked as a teacher and for the hours she needed a babysitter it just paid to get a live-in). And a box of Wacky Mac cost .69 there not 10 shekel! (But a mehadrin Etrog is just 95 shekel - $30 here)

OP - Sometimes we feel like venting or showing off ("why do they have to shlep my 3rd grader to Maarat HaMachpela for Slichot at midnight?? If I lived in America I'd have a nanny to wait up for her return at 1 AM" Scratching Head

). OP - If you're having a hard time, come to LII and we'll all discuss how we manage. Don't be jealous. Don't go attacking other people's lives. Everyone chooses their life. You have to be happy with your choice. Sometimes I see here Kollel wives kvetching about finances. I feel like yelling - Tell your husband to get a job!! But I know that steak for dinner every night wouldn't make their lives richer. Their husband learning does. That's the life they chose.

There are hundreds of things on the scale of weighing happiness. If you're happy where you live that's a big plus. If you can't live without onion powder, that's a (small) minus. Keep raising your pluses and if the minuses are too big make a big change in your life, but other people's lives aren't in the equation (and I think people shouldn't have answered your anon post - You just wanted to start up. To elevate yourself you don't have to push down other people).

amother

Thu, Sep 18 2014, 1:17 am

After reading these posts, I want to add my personal situation. I am an American living in israel. I am a sahm of 3 under 2, I am also in a masters program. Last year I made the decision to give myself time to unwind amd relax. The way I chose to do this is by having cleaning help for a few hours every day. No I don't have any mental medical or shalom bayis issues, I am just A very tired mommy, who is able to afford help so I can be a less tired mommy. No I don't walk around showing off my help to my friends, it's a private thing, a way for my husband to spoil his wife who has 3 very young ones around all day. I don't have a spare minute and that's with my cleaning lady, call me spoiled, I think it's actually smart. I have help to make sure my household runs smoothly, and without me feeling overwhelmed. That being said I still feel like I put in a full days work, nursing two babies and running after my 2 year old all day plus meals! If your still wondering how my day is so full with the cleaning help I'll bet more than happy to share my daily schedule.
Just giving you a glimpse that not all sahm with housekeepers are relaxing at the pool all day.

cityofgold

Thu, Sep 18 2014, 1:31 am

Sanguine wrote:

If you can't live without onion powder

This is totally off-topic and should not be paid attention to but I just had to say that I have gotten onion powder from Pereg in the shuk.

Sanguine

Thu, Sep 18 2014, 1:41 am

cityofgold wrote:

This is totally off-topic and should not be paid attention to but I just had to say that I have gotten onion powder from Pereg in the shuk.

I live over an hour from Yerushalyim. It's easier for me to get onion powder from 6,000 miles away Very Happy

. OK - back to serious hardships (like all onion powder clumps from the weather here anyway)

etky

Thu, Sep 18 2014, 2:09 am

http://maya-foods.com/product/.....7%9C/

m in Israel

Thu, Sep 18 2014, 2:12 am

etky wrote:

http://maya-foods.com/product/%D7%90%D7%91%D7%A7%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%A6%D7%9C/

I buy this. But it gets hard and clumpy so quickly. I really can't figure out why. And then it is very hard to use or comes out in clumps that don't dissolve well and taste really awful. I don't use much onion powder in any case, so it is not a big deal to me, but I really would like to understand why this happens!

Is it like Sanguine said -- the weather? Do the American brands also clump here (I've never brought any over so I don't know)?

etky

Thu, Sep 18 2014, 2:22 am

m in Israel wrote:

LOL - I have to admit that I'm still using up my stock of McCormick onion powder that I laid in during the years that it was unavailable here, so I've never actually used the Maya brand. I just liked the idea that it was now available here for when I run out.
Sounds like it's not up to snuff. Oh well. I'm good with the McCormick's for a while longer Very Happy

June

Thu, Sep 18 2014, 2:24 am

cinnamon wrote:

Working hard for parnasah and child rearing are curses. Punishments. It is not something to strive for.
We are promised that when Mashiach will come we will all sit peacefully in our land. Sitting peacefully, being able to stop and think that is the ideal. Running ragged from morning till night without a second to catch your breath is a manifestation of golus. And turning it into an ideal? I wouldn't be surprised if that is the yetzer hara trying to prevent us from thinking and working on our hitbonenut which is one of the ways to come closer to Hashem.

I have to quote this because liking is not enough.

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