Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
Would you divorce over chillul shabbos?
  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h



Are you more likely to divorce over chillul shabbos or belief in hashem?
I would probably divorce over chillul shabbos, even if mostly in private, assuming he was not likely to change.  
 21%  [ 23 ]
I would probably divorce over atheism, even if he generally kept mitzvos, assuming he was not likely to change.  
 14%  [ 15 ]
Divorcing over either shabbos or belief in Hashem is not an option. I would work it out, whatever it takes.  
 50%  [ 53 ]
Other, please explain  
 14%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 106



Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2012, 1:29 pm
Ruchel wrote:
Dolly Welsh wrote:

Anybody who thinks it isn't a defect should just look at the pop culture and realize there's nothing between you and that except a frum way of life.


LOL!!!


With your unusually illustrious background you don't see dangers. For others, merely having frum background is no life-preserver. I assume that is what you are thinking. Is there even one Jew alive who has no frum ancestry? No. Are they all frum now? No.

My great grandparents were completely frum.
My grandparents went Reform.
Their children ignored the whole thing, almost.
Their children, my generation, could care less - about the kind of frumkeit that imposes restrictions on convenience in deference to a real higher power.
THEIR children, the generation after me, are vague:

The four of them who are old enough to be married are not. Not one. They were born outside the marriage system because their parents assumed, as you do, that it was all sewn into nature like the sun, moon and stars, was eternal, just naturally, and didn't need the support of active Torah observance and study.

So yes, if you eat a cheesburger, the puppy gets it.

If somebody had made these four unmarried women light candles, they might have got somewhere in life. Whatever they privately believed. They might have had one child to argue with. They don't even have that. They have much peace; nobody around to disagree with.

Observance is useful. Belief is best, but going along is still extremely useful:

Metaphor: some people stretch their backs to row a lifeboat because they have faith they will make it to shore.
Others row because they would be picked on by the others if they didn't, but with no faith in it.
But - each oar-stroke propels the boat forward, without reference to the private beliefs of the rowers, which vary from sainthood to atheism. That is private, and if negative, should be kept to one's self.

This is not philosophy class. We are on the open ocean surrounded by miseries we are hoping to escape. Loose lips sink ships.


Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Fri, Feb 24 2012, 6:03 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top

Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2012, 1:44 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
Dolly Welsh wrote:

Anybody who thinks it isn't a defect should just look at the pop culture and realize there's nothing between you and that except a frum way of life.


LOL!!!


With your unusually illustrious background you don't see dangers. For others, merely having frum background is no life-preserver. I assume that is what you are thinking. Is there even one Jew alive who has no frum ancestry? No. Are they all frum now? No.
SNIP.


Ruchel, an illustrious background? Are you really the Kardashian that no one talks about?

And if a frum way of life is standing between me and pop culture, do I have to give up my Springsteen tickets? Because I really want to see The Boss.
Back to top

shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2012, 2:01 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:

Quote:
Judaism is very good to the woman. It may be harder for the man. It may be less obvious what's in it for him. Exactly because the woman is a queen and the man is restrained. And men are more impressed with science perhaps, and its seductive if nonsensical appearance of being soulless, which it isn't, and conferring power, which it doesn't. Power goes where Hashem wants it to go.
How are the men restrained in Judasism?

Quote:
I think the mother matters hugely; and a kid with a mother who believes will be fine. A rebel mother, or father too, should be discreet. It is a defect. Everybody certainly has defects, no one is immune, but they aren't to be celebrated.
Why does it have to be a defect?

Quote:
Anybody who thinks it isn't a defect should just look at the pop culture and realize there's nothing between you and that except a frum way of life. It only looks far away, unfortunately it is very near. It is no fun at all. It's broken. Let us be grateful for yiddishkeit, and if it's tiresome to go along with the program sometimes, it's still worth it. It really is where the Life is. And nothing good is free; what's very good has a high price.
You do know that there is a whole part of orthodox jews that immerse in pop culture and they are still wonderfully FRUM??? Why is it broken?
There are many many many people out in HaShem's world who are not frum and are not in any way shape or form broken.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 29 2014, 5:50 am
I am in this situation.
I have been married for 10 years now.
It's been about 6 years since my husband stopped keeping Shabbos, and stopped believing that Hashem actually wants us to keep the Torah.
We have tried our best to stay together.
We've tried to stay for the kids.
We've gone to many rabbanim.
We've gone to many therapists.
I have read many marriage books.
I have taken many marriage courses and shiurim.
In the end my husband has recently said he wants to get divorced.

We've been going back and forth about the idea for years. So it's not surprising.
It hasn't been easy though.

But, at the end of the day my respect for my husband has just been getting more and more diminished over the years. Therefore, his behaviour towards me has been less and less involved. He just has been not caring about my birthdays, our anniversaries, answering my phone messages, or texts or e-mails, going on date nights . . .

For our kids, if I can remarry a frum man, I think it will be so beautiful for my sons to be able to see
what a 'real frum house is like', and then they can see what a 'not frum house is like' and when they get older they can decide how they want their house to be. I want them to have a chance to see what it's like to have a Shabbos meal with a father who sings zemiros, does parsha sheets, says divrei Torah, loves yiddishkeit, davens, learns, puts on tefillin, loves eretz isroel . . .

Now my kids don't know what a 'real frum house is like' and they don't know what a 'non frum house is like'. They just have a weird messed up situation that's inconsistent and confusing. They have a home where both parents are not living in the home they want to live in.

When my son will be Bar Mitzvah I would love for him to have a father who can take him to shul, learn with him, help him put on tefillin etc. If I would keep staying in this marriage then my son may never have the opportunity of having a frum father. If I get divorced than maybe one day I can find a new husband who has the same goals, interests, hashkafa, and beliefs as me.

The middos aspect of my husband is also very, very difficult. My husband now uses bad language, once you're off the derech, it's not just not keeping kosher and shabbos anymore, there are so many other things involved. Not davening, not making kiddush, not making havdallah, not caring about what the kesuba says, not feeling obligated in mitzvos of 'bein adom lechaveiro', 'kibbud av va'em', 'lashon hora ', 'shomer negiah with other women' (Would you stay married to your spouse if they touched other women? Where do you draw the line? What if your husband would casually hug other women? ) . . .

I have tremendous respect for couples who can live happily ever after together, even after a husband goes off the derech.

But everyone should realize that living with someone who is an atheist, and who doesn't keep kosher and Shabbos, is a lot more complicated, and complex than you think.
My husband's situation is a little bit unique, in that his parents and 8 out of 10 of his siblings have gone off the derech as well.

So my children are getting the influences from the grandparents, father, uncles, aunts . . . Which makes everything a lot more difficult as well.

There is also the aspect that my husband promised when we got married that we would be frum and have a family. How can I trust him with anything he says anymore, after he went off the derech, I felt like I couldn't believe what he told me, because he could just change his mind.
He also isn't predictable and very sporadic and always changing. I think it's not healthy to live with someone that I never know what they will do next. For a few years they are frum, and then they are not. This personality type can play out in many other areas. One day they want to live in one country, the next day they don't. One day they wear a certain type of clothing the next day they don't . . .
For my husband he went off the derech just because he wanted to. He didn't ask me if I thought it was the best thing for our marriage, or for our kids etc.

If I make a big life decision, I want to make it with my spouse together. I wouldn't just say: "Oh I got a new job I really like in China, we're all moving there next week!" It's the same with stopping to keep all the mitzvohs. It's just not derech eretz, respectful, team work etc. To just say: "I am not keeping any of the mitzvos anymore.

I am a wife that wanted to marry adult, who is a mature, responsible, consistent husband and father, and I did not sign up for a husband who acts like a rebellious teenager, and just does what ever he wants without taking his wife and kids into consideration.

I guess in life we have big decisions to make.

In this situation of a woman being married to a man who is not frum, whether or not the couple decides to get divorced, or to stay married, only G-d knows what is best.
We can try to make the best decisions with the skills, brains, rebbeim, and family that we have.

All I know is that Hashem put me in this situation for a reason.
Hashem put me in this test for a reason.

Whether Hashem wanted me to stay married or get divorced is anybody's guess. Both sides have valid arguments!
Back to top

amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 29 2014, 6:12 am
amother wrote:
I am in this situation.


Dear amother, I can't hug you enough. May Hashem make your way towards a new happy marriage quick and light!
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 29 2014, 6:34 am
If the non shomer shabbes is I agreement with keeping it private from the kids, it can work.
Or only do boring transgressions, like doing the washing machine, I guess... but still that one would confuse the kid. A bigger teen, is something else.

Can one raise shomer shabbes kids with someone not shomer shabbes? Yes. Is it easy? Doubt it. Unless somehow the kids take the shomer shabbes parent's "side" but then it's not healthy.

A rebel parent is never a plus, unless you are a rebel too and the person you date wants a rebel type. Depending on circles it's barely relevant (though not a plus) or a dealbreaker or in between. Every group has its rules. To some taking on shabbes would be major rebel.!
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 29 2014, 7:06 am
I know this is an old thread but to the amother who revived it: I wish you hatzlacha. If you do get divorced, which may happen from what you say, I hope you have good mediation and can work together for the best interests of your children. This can be a big bracha. Your kids will get to see a model of mutual respect on some level and will feel secure if you can work things out well and stick to agreements. Your kids will get to see you respecting their father for following whatever guidelines are set up and will have some consistency in their day to day living. I hope you have lots of IRL healthy support Hug
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 29 2014, 11:27 am
Amother, sorry to be blunt, but your problem is not that your husband went off the derech. Your problem is that he's a jerk. And you deserve better than a jerk, whether frum or not.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 29 2014, 3:23 pm
I had to make this exact choice. My ex out of the blue decided he didn't want to be frum anymore, and we since we didn't have kids yet we got divorced (after talking to many rabbis and therapists) as our values and wants from life had become totally different. For me this was 100% the right decision and those who are blase saying that they would definitely make it work don't know how hard it is.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Sat, Aug 30 2014, 12:46 pm
I just asked my husband if he would divorce me If I was mechalel shabbos and he said "no, what did u do?"

I was like nothing it was just a theoretical question of if I went otd would u divorce me

He thought I meant I was mechalel shabbos by accident lol

I was like I sure hope u wouldn't leave me for accidentally turning a light on on shabbos
Back to top
Page 6 of 6   Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6 Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
What's the latest you would go away for Shabbos if invited
by amother
24 Today at 9:55 pm View last post
Baby girl shabbos stretchies/footies
by ThisMom
0 Today at 8:43 pm View last post
Long shabbos
by amother
2 Today at 6:25 pm View last post
Home every Shabbos. Practical tips please? How does it work?
by amother
11 Today at 5:03 pm View last post
Last minute opportunity for a Shabbos getaway
by amother
6 Today at 2:50 pm View last post