Mishpacha -p23 - Can You Afford this Shidduch?

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:13 pm

MBV, it's true, they are getting help. Her point is that the parents aren't limiting him to wealthy girls or girls whose parents can help. They understand that the type of girl who is best suited for him may well not come with $$. In that spirit, 2 thumbs up for mommy2b2c's parents.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:20 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Yes, that's lovely. Also the norm in my circles.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:22 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Yes, that's lovely. Also the norm in my circles.

As it should be everywhere. But evidently there's a generation that's grown up with a censored Tanach.
"Chanoch l'naar al pi darko" is missing...

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:25 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

As it should be everywhere. But evidently there's a generation that's grown up with a censored Tanach.
"Chanoch l'naar al pi darko" is missing...

Forgive my cynicism, but doesn't it rankle that people expect to be congratulated for not being a naval b'reshut hatorah?

iluvy

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:39 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Forgive my cynicism, but doesn't it rankle that people expect to be congratulated for not being a naval b'reshut hatorah?

Why is looking for a girl with money (her own or her parents') called a naval b'reshut hatorah?

Parents sit down with their son when it's time to start looking for a girl for him. They say, "What would you like to do with your life? What kind of lifestyle are you looking for?" And he says, "I want to learn full-time for many years and possibly become a rebbi someday." The parents know that their son is motivated, talented, and committed. They know that they cannot support him forever, or perhaps that they can't support him alone. Wouldn't they be doing him a great disservice by having him go out with girls with whom marriage would require him to abandon that goal?

To preempt straw men: I'm not talking about benchwarmers, or parents who want to lease a new Lexus every month, or people who say "Why should I pay a penny for my amazing son when hordes of rich girls want to date him," okay?

mirror

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:42 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

I have a relative like this. She feels entitled to marry a long term learner (her father is) and doesn't want to work a high stress/long hour job. She wants to get married and have lots of kids and have a husband who is learning.

Unless you are willing to live off of charity, that won't work.

Her father is probably still getting Section 8/HUD.

That's the main difference between New Kollel and Old-time Kollel.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:48 pm

[quote="MaBelleVie"]Um, your parents are helping.[/quote

Um, my parents are helping him because they want to. Not because he demands them to help because he feels entitled. they are not looking for full support from any girl, or setting an amount of time for him to learn. When he needs to, he will go to work.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 1:03 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Forgive my cynicism, but doesn't it rankle that people expect to be congratulated for not being a naval b'reshut hatorah?

I hear you. But I will assume that her parents are a cut or two above that Wink

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 1:25 pm

iluvy wrote:

I thought it was fairly obvious that I was not referring to people making realistic plans for financial stability.

iluvy

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 1:33 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

I thought it was fairly obvious that I was not referring to people making realistic plans for financial stability.

You were responding to this

PinkFridge wrote:

Her point is that the parents aren't limiting him to wealthy girls or girls whose parents can help.

which I think is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

SRS

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 1:42 pm

studying_torah wrote:

In the article, he does address the issue of boys also wanting "the good life" while learning in kollel. He says if you do plan to learn, live a simple lifestyle.
It's hard to discuss his article properly bec there were so many points that weren't covered in those quotes.
And it is a huge problem that many guys learn, have 4-6 kids by the time they begin to work and need a real salary, but who is paying an inexperienced worker that kind of money?!

I don't read Mishpacha, perhaps because I'm living that simple life and don't subscribe to any magazines! I'm not really keen this afternoon on engaging in a kollel discussion and I think living a simple lifestyle is something to aspire to regardless in some way, shape, or form.

That said, after many years of marriage, kids that are only getting older, and the ups and downs of life, I do think it important to point out to young people that you can live a "simple life" and still spend incredible amounts of money.

While I have never spent money on a cleaning service or cleaning help, rarely vacation beyond road trips to family, eat beans and rice during the week, keep Shabbos simple, have spent less than 1K in the last 10 years on babysitting and camps as a SAHM phasing into a serious WAHM, mostly enjoy hand-me-downs for my kids and utilize the thrift store for just about everything else by choice, and in general have toughed in out mostly in the name of retirement and college funds and TUITION, there are a number of areas in life that come along, hit you in the face, and make funds a necessity. Here are a few that come to mind:

Rent or mortgage: once you are past a certain number of children you just can't rent an apartment in many locales because they won't rent to a family of 5, 6, or 7. So unless you can manage to never relocate from a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment that you can keep having many children in, at some point you will need to rent a home or buy. If you buy, things break. If you rent, you might have to move frequently because landlords sell or take back a home.

Health Issues: One major health crisis and if you are not on some type of government care, it will cost money and in this area it isn't a choice of "living simply" because there is no thrift store option for massively expensive treatments. So there can be $5 annually for many years on end.

Special Needs: One child with a minor need can cost a few thousand annually. One kid with a more regular disorder can cost more than that. A lot of care for special needs is non-network, cash on hand, and massively expensive just to get to the point of functioning at all, not just optimally.

Looking at my friends (who almost all live "simply" to one extent or another) I see so many examples of life just taking families for costly twists or turns. Is it possible that kollel families are immune? I really don't think so. I think living a simple life is really important for better chance of weathering life's storms. But to speak about simplicity as if it is a choice to live a "low cost" life strikes me as naive because you can life on beans and rice, limit your transportation choices to used cars only, be frugal on conveniences, and still live a simple, but high cost life.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 1:48 pm

I was not responding to anything in particular, I was addressing the topic as a whole.

studying_torah

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 1:50 pm

Srs- I didn't even take any of that into account, but you r 100% right!

allthingsblue

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 2:15 pm

edited

Last edited by allthingsblue on Wed, Jul 23 2014, 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

monseychick

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 2:21 pm

studying_torah wrote:

Srs- I didn't even take any of that into account, but you r 100% right!

Thats the problem, most people dont.. So many 18/19 yr old girls give me that grin and speech about if you care about Torah you manage, with the unspoken "you shiksa"

I try to explain the very points SRS is making.. And all they do is say "I dont want to fight with you " in a snotty tone of voice...

I want to put my hands around their neck and GRRRRR shock

saw50st8

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 2:27 pm

iluvy wrote:

That's right. And therefore the woman who marries this man will be someone who specifically wants that lifestyle and is willing to sacrifice for it. He will make sure, when checking out girls and when meeting them, to explicitly talk about the kind of life he wants and make sure they are on board.

No one is being press-ganged here. The girls who want to sacrifice for kollel marry the boys who want to sacrifice for kollel. Their choices are legitimate.

If you have 7 children with cheap tuition in Lakewood that's $35,000. If a teacher's aid makes $30,000 (I don't think they even make that), can you explain to me how the math works out? Never mind food, shelter, clothing etc.

Everyone talks about living simply but at the end of the day you need enough money to live even in poverty. Even kids who grow up with a long term learner father don't really know the ins and outs of the finances.

mirror

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 2:30 pm

monseychick wrote:

But somehow many do manage, either by babysitting at home or running a playgroup or getting a coveted teaching job. When money gets tight, some end up going to college for a degree (but right now they believe only MO people do that). That's where TTI comes in.

http://www.testingandtraining.com/tti/

SRS

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 2:45 pm

monseychick wrote:

Even at 25 and even at 30 I had no idea what life would throw at us. But when you have always had a simple approach and a drive to save, it isn't a storm. I don't expect an 18 or 19 year old to understand or even a 23 year old. But the culture issue is that young people are constantly fed the idea that it is about "lifestyle" when you can really live a low key lifestyle and still spend serious bucks. And then there is tuition and sadly I think many of the young people will find that the tzedakah pot is already too small and there is no room left for their needs.

monseychick

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 2:45 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Simple... A lot of help from mommy and daddy that they'll never tell you about

A lot of help from Fetter Shmeel and charity

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 2:53 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

Or by racking up huge amounts of debt.