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Mishpacha -p23 - Can You Afford this Shidduch?
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 9:24 pm
And my point is that for the numbers to add up, the sacrifice will not just be making do with less. It will be a very significant workload on the wife.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 9:34 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
While that is very, very true, I don't think that was the gripe the student of Rabbi Eisenstark had....hers was about the metzius that girls aren't wanting to work at all. (I think; I've only read this thread, not the article in question.)

To quote the OP (because I don't remember the original article)
Quote:
...fear that the burden of Parnassah will fall completely on their shoulders, alongside her main tafkid of being an eim b'Yisroel

Doesn't sound like they don't want to lift a finger; sounds to me like they are worried it will be too much. I think it's a good thing that they are trying to think realistically instead of idealistically.

When I was in seminary, it seemed like it was all a matter of working a little harder and making do with less. Making do with less is the easy part, even when you would prefer creature comforts. But working full time while raising a family is a lot easier said than done. They don't tell you that putting your kids to bed and keeping them there can take up your entire night when you need to leave for work at 8 in the morning. (We have a pretty good bedtime routine going on here, for one child. It takes over a half hour to do, though. And even then the child can wake up with a nightmare or a bed-wetting or something. The other child is in the process of learning a bedtime routine so it takes at least an hour for her to settle. Then SHE wakes up again needing to be resettled. And can do this multiple times. She's almost 2. The idealized kollel wife already has another child by then, if all goes well, which means that even if she did more successfully and earlier sleep train the toddler, she is waking up with an infant needing to nurse/feed at night.) Then come morning, since you already prepared everyone's breakfasts and lunches and outfits and camp bags the night before, all you need to do is stay conscious look and act put-together and professional for the next 8-9 hours. for a job that, even if you planned well and got a good degree in an in-demand profession, still most likely does not cover all your expenses. And then when you get home instead of having any kind of break or nap you need to make up for lost time with the family. And gear up for the next day. Technically none of this should really be a shock, but somehow it didn't seem quite as hard as it is. Maybe because you could pull an all-nighter in seminary easily, since it wasn't your 5th in a row and you could always get away with spacing out during a certain class or two. Maybe because you considered it fun to make shabbos for a family as a chessed, because you didn't also have to do the planning and shopping (including paying) and everything on your own, also amid a full workweek with sleepless nights.

I do believe some people can do it. But it can't possibly be the norm. And when they talk about G-d miraculously providing, I don't think they mention what percentage of kollel families are on government programs and charities, which is a very different feeling and reality than providentially getting a raise at the right time or whatever happens in the hashgacha pratis stories.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 9:54 pm
Op here.

Sorry for confusion. Both paragraphs were direct quotes from original article.
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 22 2014, 10:29 pm
In the article, he does address the issue of boys also wanting "the good life" while learning in kollel. He says if you do plan to learn, live a simple lifestyle.
It's hard to discuss his article properly bec there were so many points that weren't covered in those quotes.
And it is a huge problem that many guys learn, have 4-6 kids by the time they begin to work and need a real salary, but who is paying an inexperienced worker that kind of money?!
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 5:04 am
Someone, wish I could remember who, wrote that top scientists need support to be able to progress, so do top Torah learners

If you want to marry the future gadol hador or inventor of yene machle vax, you/your parents/kehila may need to support him

I add: every woman should choose, every ILs too, nothing should be forced. I say this as an x kollel wife (when we could afford! LOL kah since then family grew and grew, school started Smile ).

Now, asking from people with several kids an apartment, just makes me laugh (sadly not funnily). Are they meant to take a job at 60? debts? go back to renting? how can their kids not be ashamed? Sad

My dh is not FT learning anymore and has not encountered (open?) judging on this. If anything there are tons of people harassing him with questions kah Wink we did encounter judging (by a rebbetzin! in a charedi school!) for being in kollel. She turned up her nose and said to me "woa isn't that inconvenient?!". We ran for the hills.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 6:30 am
amother wrote:
That is exactly the point of the article! Good boys WILL NOT consider a shidduch, UNLESS parents and girl are willing to support his long-term learning!!!!
I know a great girl in Lakewood. Her father is a Chusheva person, a rebbi in a school. She is the oldest of 10 children kh. She cannot find a decent boy interested in her because her father CANNOT support her and neither does her teaching (aide to first grade) support her either!


There are a few things wrong with this post. This girl can of course find a decent - no, GREAT shidduch once she realizes that there are amazing boys who work, not learn full time. She can find a man (not boy) who wakes up early for daf yomi, minyan, work, then a shiur after. There are tons of lunch hour learning options as well. And why is she a teachers aid? I can say this because I myself spent way too long as a teachers aid. It pays nothing! This girl needs to change her out look, take a break from dating (I'm guessing shes under 19) and become more than an aid. The she will be a woman who has her priorities in line and ready for a man who is a great guy and a great shidduch. A girl from a damily of 10 has no buisness working a minimal salary job and looking for a full time learner.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 6:33 am
I dated outside of my "pool" to find what I was looking for.
She can do the same.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 6:34 am
watergirl wrote:
There are a few things wrong with this post. This girl can of course find a decent - no, GREAT shidduch once she realizes that there are amazing boys who work, not learn full time. She can find a man (not boy) who wakes up early for daf yomi, minyan, work, then a shiur after. There are tons of lunch hour learning options as well. And why is she a teachers aid? I can say this because I myself spent way too long as a teachers aid. It pays nothing! This girl needs to change her out look, take a break from dating (I'm guessing shes under 19) and become more than an aid. The she will be a woman who has her priorities in line and ready for a man who is a great guy and a great shidduch. A girl from a damily of 10 has no buisness working a minimal salary job and looking for a full time learner.


I have a relative like this. She feels entitled to marry a long term learner (her father is) and doesn't want to work a high stress/long hour job. She wants to get married and have lots of kids and have a husband who is learning.

Unless you are willing to live off of charity, that won't work.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 6:35 am
MaBelleVie wrote:
And my point is that for the numbers to add up, the sacrifice will not just be making do with less. It will be a very significant workload on the wife.
Thumbs Up
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monseychick




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 7:28 am
watergirl wrote:
There are a few things wrong with this post. This girl can of course find a decent - no, GREAT shidduch once she realizes that there are amazing boys who work, not learn full time. She can find a man (not boy) who wakes up early for daf yomi, minyan, work, then a shiur after. There are tons of lunch hour learning options as well. And why is she a teachers aid? I can say this because I myself spent way too long as a teachers aid. It pays nothing! This girl needs to change her out look, take a break from dating (I'm guessing shes under 19) and become more than an aid. The she will be a woman who has her priorities in line and ready for a man who is a great guy and a great shidduch. A girl from a damily of 10 has no buisness working a minimal salary job and looking for a full time learner.


You missed the point. She is a "good" girl (fully indoctrinated) from a "choshuve" family.. Thats worth $$$$$
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 7:50 am
My theory (and I say this as a person who got married at 19, but with a degree and savings in the bank) is that girls should get married later.

Hold off on shidduchim while you establish yourself in a profession. Save the money instead of spending it frivolously. By the time you get married, you will have 1)more maturity 2)money in the bank 3)less stress of schooling 4) a decent start in a job that gives you higher earning potential since you have experience

That way, even if by child #3 you feel like you must cut back on your hours and your husband doesn't have incredible earning potential, you will still have a decent pay for the hours you do work as well as some savings to fall back on while your husband increases his capabilities of bringing in parnasa.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 7:58 am
monseychick wrote:
You missed the point. She is a "good" girl (fully indoctrinated) from a "choshuve" family.. Thats worth $$$$$

I didn't miss the point at all. Who's money is it worth? Because the amother said that her family has no money, she makes no money, and the "good" boys are not supposed to/expected to support. From what I know about the kollel shidduch system, its the boys family who is looking for the top "offer" from the girls out there. So you said "that's worth $$$", but it seems backwards to me from your post. She is not going to find a boy with parents who are willing to support her and her learning boy based on the merit that she is a "good girl" who is a teachers assistant and comes from a large family with a rebbe father.

And another thing I wanted to add to my first post on this thread. The amother whom I was responding to said that she was looking for a "good" boy. Whats so good about a boy who is in learning, who is not willing to read the ketuba?
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monseychick




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 8:26 am
watergirl wrote:
I didn't miss the point at all. Who's money is it worth? Because the amother said that her family has no money, she makes no money, and the "good" boys are not supposed to/expected to support. From what I know about the kollel shidduch system, its the boys family who is looking for the top "offer" from the girls out there. So you said "that's worth $$$", but it seems backwards to me from your post. She is not going to find a boy with parents who are willing to support her and her learning boy based on the merit that she is a "good girl" who is a teachers assistant and comes from a large family with a rebbe father.

And another thing I wanted to add to my first post on this thread. The amother whom I was responding to said that she was looking for a "good" boy. Whats so good about a boy who is in learning, who is not willing to read the ketuba?


I agree with you 1000% WG... Im just telling you how this girl thinks... She feels in her case, a boy from a family that isnt so choshuv , should cough up the money...

I come across this all the time
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 8:55 am
MaBelleVie wrote:
And my point is that for the numbers to add up, the sacrifice will not just be making do with less. It will be a very significant workload on the wife.


That's right. And therefore the woman who marries this man will be someone who specifically wants that lifestyle and is willing to sacrifice for it. He will make sure, when checking out girls and when meeting them, to explicitly talk about the kind of life he wants and make sure they are on board.

No one is being press-ganged here. The girls who want to sacrifice for kollel marry the boys who want to sacrifice for kollel. Their choices are legitimate.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 8:55 am
GOtcha, Monsey. I don't get this mentality at all. So many people standing on the grounds of the kavod they think they deserve Is the reason for this self created shiddich crisis.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 8:56 am
watergirl wrote:
There are a few things wrong with this post. This girl can of course find a decent - no, GREAT shidduch once she realizes that there are amazing boys who work, not learn full time. She can find a man (not boy) who wakes up early for daf yomi, minyan, work, then a shiur after. There are tons of lunch hour learning options as well. And why is she a teachers aid? I can say this because I myself spent way too long as a teachers aid. It pays nothing! This girl needs to change her out look, take a break from dating (I'm guessing shes under 19) and become more than an aid. The she will be a woman who has her priorities in line and ready for a man who is a great guy and a great shidduch. A girl from a damily of 10 has no buisness working a minimal salary job and looking for a full time learner.


We have to create these boys. I don't know if there are as many proportionately as there used to be.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:05 am
amother wrote:
That is exactly the point of the article! Good boys WILL NOT consider a shidduch, UNLESS parents and girl are willing to support his long-term learning!!!!
I know a great girl in Lakewood. Her father is a Chusheva person, a rebbi in a school. She is the oldest of 10 children kh. She cannot find a decent boy interested in her because her father CANNOT support her and neither does her teaching (aide to first grade) support her either!


Although, unfortunately a lot of what you say is true for a lot of people, TRULY good boys are not looking for the highest bidder. My brother is that TOP boy who everyone is looking for. He can literally go out with one or two girls every week. Not on his list- full support. My parents will help him, and when he needs to he will go to work. Because that is what a true top boy does. If your main priority is money, then your obviously not really such a good boy.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:09 am
iluvy wrote:
That's right. And therefore the woman who marries this man will be someone who specifically wants that lifestyle and is willing to sacrifice for it. He will make sure, when checking out girls and when meeting them, to explicitly talk about the kind of life he wants and make sure they are on board.

No one is being press-ganged here. The girls who want to sacrifice for kollel marry the boys who want to sacrifice for kollel. Their choices are legitimate.


You're missing the point as well. This guy think he can marry a girl with a low paying job, when it literally is not possible to survive on that unless they plan on getting assistance from sources other than family. All these people who think they are willing to sacrifice is well and good, but when push comes to shove and the money just isn't there and the rent needs to be paid... Than what?
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:10 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
Although, unfortunately a lot of what you say is true for a lot of people, TRULY good boys are not looking for the highest bidder. My brother is that TOP boy who everyone is looking for. He can literally go out with one or two girls every week. Not on his list- full support. My parents will help him, and when he needs to he will go to work. Because that is what a true top boy does. If your main priority is money, then your obviously not really such a good boy.


Um, your parents are helping.
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 23 2014, 9:12 am
MaBelleVie wrote:
You're missing the point as well. This guy think he can marry a girl with a low paying job, when it literally is not possible to survive on that unless they plan on getting assistance from sources other than family. All these people who think they are willing to sacrifice is well and good, but when push comes to shove and the money just isn't there and the rent needs to be paid... Than what?


I responded specifically to what you wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:
And my point is that for the numbers to add up, the sacrifice will not just be making do with less. It will be a very significant workload on the wife.


regarding the burden on the wife, not about whether it will work.
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