Mishpacha -p23 - Can You Afford this Shidduch?

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 9:39 pm

goodmorning wrote:

Does "good boy" equal long-term learning? It wasn't clear from amother's post. (But if that is what you meant, what does your friend think about the finances in her home iy"H if she cannot support a family and she wants to marry someone who will be long-term learning?)

(I am not trying to turn into the posterboard for monetary demands during shidduchim. I just don't understand attitudes like amother's.)

That's what it sounded like she was saying. What I don't understand is how a girl would expect to marry a long term learner with no way to support his learning. It isn't a God given right.

seeker

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 10:55 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I think that many people resent when they HAVE to do something. So if someone comes into a marriage saying "I'd love to learn, but I do understand it's my responsibility to support you, how can we make this work?" the prospective wife is probably happy to say "I'm willing to work for as long as I'm able to" knowing that it's not her BURDEN but rather her CHOICE that she can rescind at any moment (if practical -- most households will need dual income once you reach school aged children, especially if the husband is coming out of kollel and doesn't have a 7 figure job lined up, but that's another issue entirely)....just knowing not everything is on her shoulders will be tremendously liberating.

Well, then there are the girls who say "I'm willing to work for as long as I'm able to" and the boys who say "OK, I would love to learn as long as you're able to and then I will go to work" and then a few years and a few kids later, she'd like to be done but he finds that nobody really wants to hire a 30-year-old kollel retiree with the business skills/qualifications of a typical high school junior, if that.

I think THAT's the bigger problem. THAT's what results in burned-out wives because they were doing OK for a while but then when they're not OK with it anymore, they still need to keep pushing through because the backup plan was never strong enough in the first place.

proudema

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:14 pm

The problem IMO is not boys learning or girls wanting boys who learn. IMO the problem is the entitlement of most boys. I know personally of boys who say it's coming to them and why should they date girls from lower income homes if they can get girls from wealthier families. These boys sit and talk about the nice car the in laws will buy them and the nice house they'll get when the time comes. It's sick. Nothing is coming to anyone. You want that stuff?! Work! A lot of gedolim had side jobs. They took a Sefer with them and learned during the quiet hours of the day. Since when are these boys gedolim? Why do they deserve to be supported when most of them are bench warmers? Let's face it, not too many of them are the next Rav Aharon Kotler. I believe boys should be taught life skills that are marketable and they should go to work. Be kovea itim of course but support your family like a man is obligated to. I have a brother who is a tremendous masmid. He's still young not yet married but he's the real deal. He does not expect support. He expects to live a real kollel lifestyle without frills. If a boy is like that and his wife agrees to it. Then it's all good. But like I said most boys today are not like that. They don't want to live a kollel life. They want the nice car, nice apartment, nice vacations... All billed to the in laws. Sad system.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:17 pm

seeker wrote:

While that is very, very true, I don't think that was the gripe the student of Rabbi Eisenstark had....hers was about the metzius that girls aren't wanting to work at all. (I think; I've only read this thread, not the article in question.)

TzipporahN

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:26 pm

I haven't read the article but my pov is that the kesuvah says the husband should support the wife - not the other way around and not that either set of parents should. But, we are hashkofikly strong Yekkes and don't believe in full time learning for everyone. We are so dismayed that one is automatically considered MO or not frum if not living that lifestyle. It's so hard to find others of the same mindset. The way the frum community is going it's headed for disaster - how long can this continue for? Who's going to support the next generation? Who's going to support all the community organizations, Yeshivos - no-one will be able to pay tuition. The people who decide to buck the trend now will be overwhelmed by requests for donations, but there won't be enough resources to go around - is nobody seeing the bigger picture and looking at the future? What about the Yissoscher-Zevulun relationship - the Torah lays out that solution. This is all about peer pressure and ridiculous expectations - which set up some for failure. Apologies for the vent - just a pet peeve of mine.

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:29 pm

TzipporahN wrote:

Since you aren't part of a community where these are the norms, you really shouldn't get so worked up about it Smile

And I don't know where you live, but outside of certain enclaves, no one looks down on a guy or considers him less frum because he isn't planning on kollel.

amother

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:34 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Since you aren't part of a community where these are the norms, you really shouldn't get so worked up about it Smile

And I don't know where you live, but outside of certain enclaves, no one looks down on a guy or considers him less frum because he isn't planning on kollel.

New amother.

I live in Brooklyn, New York.

I have relatives in Lakewood who are learning. They clearly look down on me because my husband is working. They have implied that I don't keep Kosher (even though I check every leaf with a lightbox).

It's very hurtful when topics of Halacha come up and they are not interested in what I have to say, even though I have asked lots of Shailos involving Kashrut and TH.

Recently the topic of flavored dentalfloss came up. I kept saying it's kosher and they kept ignoring me and asking the question again. Sad

MaBelleVie

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:44 pm

amother wrote:

Soooo you have some idiotic relatives and therefore....?

mirror

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:49 pm

TzipporahN wrote:

The way the frum community is going it's headed for disaster - how long can this continue for? Who's going to support the next generation? Who's going to support all the community organizations, Yeshivos - no-one will be able to pay tuition. The people who decide to buck the trend now will be overwhelmed by requests for donations, but there won't be enough resources to go around - is nobody seeing the bigger picture and looking at the future?

Part of the problem is the astronomical rents in Lakewood. Basements are now going for $1200. The solution would be to plant 20 Lakewood families two towns over in NJ. The houses would be cheaper and same with the rents. There would be more jobs because it would be less flooded.

goodmorning

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:49 pm

proudema wrote:

Unfortunately, your brother may discover that even the no-frills kollel lifestyle requires some source of funding. Rent (even for a one-bedroom basement apartment), food (even lentils), health care, transportation (even a broken-down car or a MetroCard) ... and this is before the costs of babysitting, child equipment and/or clothing, and then <drumroll> tuition ... all adds up.

I don't think that the problem with the kollel lifestyle is the few bench-warmers + luxury-seekers. I think that the problem is that the basic costs of life do cost money, and someone has got to pay for them. If a girl chooses a low-paying job or none at all and and she wants to marry a full-time learner (I.e. not high earner), who does she expect to fund this lifestyle and why is she upset when her kollel dream cannot materialize?

mirror

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:52 pm

goodmorning wrote:

P.S.: In lakewood a metrocard is worthless. No public transportation.

proudema

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:04 am

goodmorning wrote:

He expects his wife will work at a low paying job. He also expects that once his family grows he will get a job, but maybe a rosh chabura giving shiur or a Maggid shiur. Something along those lines. He expects to live a very poor lifestyle and he's ok with that. And he won't marry someone who isn't. He has no problem wearing shoes that are old and falling apart. He currently owns one suit and a few white shirts. He's a very simple person gashmius wise. I admire him a lot knowing I could never live like that.

proudema

Wed, Jul 23 2014, 12:15 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

His wife's low paying job is going to put a roof over their heads, food in their mouths, transportation means and child care? And then as a rosh chabura he's going to earn enough to pay tuition? Has he actually crunched the numbers?

No he hasn't. My point was more that living a real kollel life takes sacrifice and hard work. Plus a true commitment from both husband and wife. These days young boys and girls aren't interested in sacrifice. They want the support and free ride. The ones who are committed to making it work without an entitlement attitude are few and far between.