To all you Brooklyn bashers...

yo'ma

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 4:31 am

Let me warn you that this will probably not come out right. I'm not sure how to express my question. Well, here goes, I'll give it a shot.

Instead of saying Brooklyn, I'm going to say NY. It's shorter, but I mean Brooklyn because NY is big with some smaller communities. In this thread, http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....cons, one of the things listed as a pro for moving oot is friendliness and the like. My question is, do you feel people are like that because they live in such a populated area or that's their personality? If you take a NYer out of NY, will you still have a NYer?

I lived in Brooklyn all my life until I moved here. I've stayed in LA many times over the summer, but like another poster said, you have everything there too. While I do notice that some people aren't friendly or more specifically open arms to everyone that walks by, I feel that everyone is the same everywhere. Though in NY since there are so many people, it's on a larger scale and especially in this case, the negative is louder than the positive.

Maybe I'm used to it, maybe I'm one of them, maybe I look for the good, maybe I'm naive, but I notice more nicer, friendlier people than not. If you would split NY by community and community can sometimes mean block, neighborhood, school, or shul, it's like a small "oot community". You have to find your place and in NY there are a lot more places to look.

Now that I've said what I said, I would rather live in a smaller community than NY, but not because of the reasons stated above. Too bad I'm living in a place that's IMO worse than NY. Not the people, but other things.

Was I clear? If I think of anything else, I'll post it. What do you think?

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 6:34 am

I remember reading an article in the Jewish Observer years ago about how to raise an out of towner while living in town. I think that that's the kind of upbringing you had.
(And not to bash in town: there is a lot to incorporate into our lives and chinuch here OOT too. Forgive me for not elaborating now.)

amother

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 6:54 am

As a born and bred and staying in Brooklyn Brooklynite, I can only say that where we live is totally beshert and its up to us to make the best of where we are placed at any given time. When I go out of town on extended vacations (I own a home out of town for many years) I see that life is more difficult in many ways, although easier in others.
It's so much easier to raise children in NY and the grass is not greener anywhere, the grass is what you make of it. If you take care of your garden, it blooms no matter where it is....

out-of-towner

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 7:25 am

Look, I'm an out-of-towner (clearly Very Happy

) and while I am living in NY for now for many reasons, DH and I do not think that we want to raise our kids here. I know that there are many Maalos to living in a large Frum community, but there tends to be more of a focus on Gashmius here in NY, and there tends to be less of a pride about being Frum, because hey, everyone around here is Frum. I know that I could give that kind of Chinuch to my kids even in NY, but I just don't want to live with the challenges. If we have to stay here we will, but DH and I would prefer to be in a smaller, warmer community. I do note that not all small communities are warm and welcoming...seen that sometimes!

HonesttoGod

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 9:20 am

Growing up in a place like Brooklyn (or London, Los Angeles, Hong kong, any large city really), life is constantly moving. Constantly busy, doing, running. No one has time for anyone else. Everyone is involved in their own life and that is that.

Sometimes it is a good thing, who wants a nosy neighbor?! But most times it is not.
People end up being rude as oppose to just not nosy. They don't care about you unless they need you.

I am generalizing this, there are many people who are not like this but in general I would say a large majority are.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 9:46 am

HonestoGod, that energy was something I was thinking of as a positive. It's what creates the amazing array of chesed organizations in NY. Not that we don't have them OOT, but I wonder if there's more of a feeling of possibility and making something happen that in-towners have.

And all the chinuch and Torah options. Wow. OK, I'm grateful to be OOt where there's no 8th-9th grade drama, and we do have a lot of Torah here, and also just a keystroke away. But that doesn't mean that we can't look to NY and say wow sometimes.

OK, am I working too hard? Is it really that hard to find positive things in Brooklyn? Tongue Out

Personally, I think it's a great place to visit. Seriously.

amother

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 9:58 am

I think it's possible to behave like an out of towner in Brooklyn. At one point we decided to have guests for Shabbos (like every week) and reached out to a lot of people in the neighborhood that we thought could use an invitation. There was one older divorced man that we invited over a few times. My dh hadn't really known him well at all, but he had seen the man in shul and invited him. Once at a meal, he nearly fell off his chair when he heard that we were both born and raised in Brooklyn, he was sure that we were from out of town. I find that in the more concentrated area of Brooklyn, your block becomes your community. We have between 50-60 frum families living on my block, and I would say that the block is like a community, everyone is looking to help each other and cares about each other (maybe not to the same extent as out of town, but I wouldn't know since I've never lived out of town). I do think it's a busier life but even that you can probably control - out of town you can't shop past a certain amount of time cuz the stores are closed - whereas by me I can go out to the store at 11pm Thursday night to get meat for my cholent (guess my out of town counterpart is peacefully asleep then). I could make sure my shopping is done before 9pm and then go to sleep, but I tend to procrastinate, I guess that's an in-town luxary Smile

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 10:03 am

amother wrote:

Hm. See bolded. No one flips that. But we do envy the amenities.
But some of my favorite relatives live in Bklyn. And there's one neighborhood I especially like. Other than the parking if I had to live in NY those could be my peeps.

seeker

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 10:05 am

I have lived in and near Brooklyn and know many people there. I know numerous warm, friendly people born and bred there. I think the reason it seems less friendly is because there are so many people that you can't know everyone - you develop your circle of friends and if someone's not in it you don't notice them much if at all. In a smaller community, people notice when someone's new and reach out to them. When you have so many people living close together, it's hard to keep track and there also isn't that sense that people are counting on you because you always feel like there are so many others who can take care of everything. It's a hard place to move to for those reasons, while if you grew up there it's likely you have some automatic social "ins."

amother

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 10:05 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Ok. spill it out. We all want to be the one to say "I live there"...lol

amother

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 10:41 am

The biggest problem is that the New York attitude affects Jews who live there. New Yorkers in general pride themselves on being super assertive and in-your-face. They consider that a meilah. That attitude is really bad for Jews, though, because it's the exact opposite of refinement and eidelkeit.

Some of the most refined, eidel people I've ever met have been from New York, but it's a huge sacconah to raise kids there, IMHO. You have to work really hard plus have a lot of mazel to keep your kids from picking up the whole in-your-face, back-at-you mentality.

I know that people have to live in NY for jobs and family, but I would never risk it. The majority of kids can't overcome their surroundings and they fail.

amother

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:04 am

The pace is what's fun when you're young, single, out and about without the kids etc But when you're trying to raise your kids, I think it's a negative. Kids thrive when it's calm, when they are not one of many in a classroom/school/community, when there's space to breathe. I also think, from a modern orthodox perspective, that we are not meant to be sheltered in our own world. We are meant to integrate and share our strengths and beliefs and overall positive attributes with the broader world. And when you live in Brooklyn or any other larger jewish community, it can be harder to see past the walls of your community. To see the greater non frum world around you.

I pride myself (as a NYer no longer living on NY) on being one of the friendliest moms at the park. I converse with everyone near me and encourage my kids to do the same. And I hope when people see my somewhat well behaved kids, boys with their kippot, and me with my modest yet trendy clothes, they think wow, I had no idea religious Jews could be like that.

amother

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:13 am

On the "super assertive and in-your-face" NY attitude -- I am an OOTer that now lives in the greater NY area. I wouldn't say that the NY attitude is in conflict with being eidel and refined. I think being in the big and rough city does require one to develop a tougher outer shell, but that was something that really helped me, as someone who had previously had difficulty standing up for herself and being assertive in the past (and I still have to work on this sometimes).

Like with all middos in life, I think the elements of the "NY attitude" can be used for good and bad -- I don't think it's right to say that it is impossible to combine refinement and assertiveness that can be channeled to enhance one's self-esteem and self-respect. Living in NY really helped me develop this midda in a positive way (I hope)!

mommy3b2c

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 11:29 am

amother wrote:

I was born and still live in NY. I talk to everyone I see, and 99% of people are friendly back to me. My kids are the same way. New Yorkers, whether frum or not definitely have a different way of viewing life then in more relaxed places, however, as individual people, they are just as nice as everyone else.

SplitPea

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 12:42 pm

My two cents.

We use to live in one area. Everyone said g'shabbos while walking by. It was "friendly" enough. We moved to another neighborhood and it was "hi good Shabbos. Have we met? Did you just move in? What's your name......" You get my point.

I have seen in NY attitudes of judging others because of how they dress or their level of frumkeit. I have seen people questioned on their Jewishness etc because they didn't look the part. OOT I have seen people be welcomed into an orthodox shul with open arms wearing shorts and a tshirt because their were another Jew and everyone was just happy to have another Jew.

I have seen in town children talk about the "ikky G0yem, who are bad and nasty" or worse. OOT I have seen children playing hand in hand with non Jewish children all the while knowing they are Jewish, they are different and they chosen.

chocolate chips

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 2:26 pm

Hate NY. Hate London.

Ok maybe hate is a strong word because there is a lot I do like about Brooklyn such as the amenities. 24 hr kosher stores, restaurants, range of take outs for prices and palettes. You name it we have it.
But it kinda stops there.

I am a country girl at heart. I grew up with back yards and front yards side yards and play yards. Air, green grass, space, PARKING! LOL

amother

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 3:16 pm

Interesting perspectives here...

As a proud born and bred NY-er I think it's silly to think that one "mehalech" is so much more preferable to another. Yes, someone from NYC is different culturally than someone from Kansas City - or from Toronto or from Brazil for that matter. The US is a huge country consisting of NUMEROUS subcultures - each with its pros and cons.

While an "OOT"-er - someone from Atlanta, Dallas or St. Louis - might view a NY-er as "pushy and aggressive", a NY-er might see an "OOT"-er as too lackadaisical, not taking things seriously enough. When you're part of a bigger community there are often more communal responsibilities; with that, come more opportunities as well. I can walk into any of the major NYC hospital and do bikur cholim; but you can imagine how many people need assistance - physically, emotionally, monetarily, etc. - in your typical "in town" community... Crying

Life IS faster in NY - it's fast and it's serious but with that comes a certain sobriety and sense of purpose. Every time we take a "chol hamoed" trip to a field somewhere and make a day out of a picnic and softball game - I guarantee that we appreciate that relaxation a heck of a lot more than your typical person from Louisiana...

...and maybe that's the "authentic" way to raise "yiddishe" children

(Btw, I don't actually think any way is particularly more "in sync" with Yiddishkeit than any other - they're merely different cultures, don't fool yourself... IYH when Moshiach comes we will know what the 'ideal' culture is...)

Frumdoc

Tue, Jul 22 2014, 3:45 pm

There are aspects of living "in town" that come from living in a big city, any big city, which makes people more defensive of their time, personal space and dignity, which can cause anyone to behave in ways which are not how we expect a frum person to treat anyone, jew or non jew. It is incumbent on those living in these circumstances not to allow themselves to fall into these behavior patterns.

The consequence of living in a large jewish community, particularly a homogeneous group rather than a large mixed community, can be to foster an attitude of superiority, intolerance and ignorance about how other people, jew or non jew live.

Combine these two learned behavior patterns and you can get some truly obnoxious types, what some would call the NY type.

None of this is inevitable, and it is possible to be a nice, good, kind and tolerant person wherever and however you were brought up. Chabad seem to manage this quite well.

Other than this, there are advantages and disadvantages to whatever community or geographic setting you grow up in, BH we all have free will, most have common sense and a brain cell or 3, so can easily overcome these learned tendencies once we have identified those we do not wish to foster in ourselves or our children.