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When to potch?
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groisamomma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 11:19 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Nope. I don't believe that a toddler brain is capable of that. It just hasn't reached that point in development yet.


Your toddler, maybe. But what if a parent knows their kid is able?

This is ridiculous, to make blanket statements about things like this. Arguing, too. I hope you're having as much fun as I am. Very Happy
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 11:22 pm
I don't live in Brooklyn, but I don't sit in front of my house unless we stay on the porch and I block off the steps. Otherwise we play in the park. I'm very familiar with Lakewood developments, and watching people providing inadequate supervision makes my blood boil. Seriously. Those mothers will have a very hefty din vcheshbon to give, regardless of whether their children made it through childhood safely.

Shomer pesaim Hashem.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 11:24 pm
groisamomma wrote:
Your toddler, maybe. But what if a parent knows their kid is able?

This is ridiculous, to make blanket statements about things like this. Arguing, too. I hope you're having as much fun as I am. Very Happy


I don't think it's ridiculous to say that research indicates that those functions in the brain don't develop until a later age. I mean, this is pretty hard science...
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 11:30 pm
allrgymama wrote:


@gp2.0: see, and I think that that's even worse; it's teasing.


Wow. If you think that putting a child on the steps is teasing, I'd think you'd be aware of how psychologically scarring it can be to make a child wait for a potch and then decide where they should be hit...that takes teasing up to a whole new level...
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Tova




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 11:36 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
If the two are equivalent, how is it effective?


The equivalency is in the physical pain - or lack thereof. But it was quite effective in disciplining my toddlers if I remember correctly.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 03 2014, 11:42 pm
Tova wrote:
The equivalency is in the physical pain - or lack thereof. But it was quite effective in disciplining my toddlers if I remember correctly.


Right, the point is that it isn't just about the pain. It involves an emotional component, which obviously a baby doesn't comprehend at all. My issue isn't that potching a toddler isn't effective- I'm sure it can be in many situations. My issue is that the emotional component isn't something a toddler can process effectively. So while you may get the desired consequence with that potch, you can't filter out undesired consequences the same way you can with a more emotionally mature child.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 12:07 am
Many better ways to teach our children, potch is not acceptable.

It was in the middle ages. Not today, thankfully.

and a 5 years old was stupid? can a 5 yr old ever be stupid?

You know, I think you are damaging young kids. Maybe a good idea to attend a good parenting workshop at a social services agencies.

and to be potched for being stupid?

and potch on face?

lots of red flags. kids can be taken away if reported.

we are not in the ghetto anymore. please.

time to see a therapist, potch is NOT ok.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 10:31 am
Wow, I missed a lot!

I have never, ever understood potching a toddler for running into the street.

Toddlers do not understand the dangers of the street, so why why why would a parent ever put their toddler in a situation in which it were possible for them to run into the street? If one is supervising their toddler properly, it just. wouldn't. happen.

A few things about *conditioning*:

1. When conditioning is done in a lab, (which is the only kind of conditioning we have scientific information about) every factor is controlled for and there is only one variable: the stimulus. There are no other possible distracting factors to confuse the subject. IRL this is not so. Imagine little Moishe sees a fluffy kitten just across the street and wants to touch the fluffy kitten. So he begins to walk toward the fluffy kitten when all of a sudden, out of the blue, he gets a potch from Mommy. Mommy is thinking street=potch; Moishe is thinking kitten=potch. Or butterfly=potch; or rainy day=potch, or any one of a hundred other variables that he was paying attention to=potch. He did not learn what you thought you taught and you really can't know what connection he is making; you're not in his head.

2. Real conditioning most often takes repeated exposures. By the time your child *gets* it, if he gets it at all, he's probably old enough to understand rationally why he should not go into the street. You could have skipped all the potching.

Except that what most often happens is that a potch is not effective the first time, and the parent thinks the child is just being willful or chutzpahdig (I've potched him every. time. he's run into the street and he STILL hasn't learned!) so they potch harder the next time, etc..

For all the posters who have only had to potch little Moishe once and he never ran into the street again, I would venture to say that that is because, as a responsible parent, you realized you needed to supervise him better and you didn't leave him in a position to run into the street a second time.

3. A toddler is not capable of rational decision making, such as: Hmm, I want to run into the street but Mommy will potch me and I don't like a potch, so I'll pass on the street. But you all know that. The part of the brain that is involved in this kind of conditioning-by-potching is not the rational brain; it is the same part of the brain responsible for the fight, flight or freeze response. You do NOT want to play around with this part of the brain.


And now a personal story. A few days ago I send ds11 out walking with ds22-mos without a stroller. DD7 tagged along. When they came back, dd told me that toddler ran across the street and he got all the way across before ds11 was able to get to him. It's a wide street. B"H a thousand times that he is okay.

You can bet that I gave ds11 what-for but the one who was really responsible was ME. DS11 was upset about something that had happened earlier, had been in a bad mood, hadn't wanted to take the baby out, and from past experience I could have and should have known that he was just not mentally engaged. He didn't intend to be irresponsible; his mind was just focused elsewhere and he's 11. He let his brother get too far ahead of him.

I did not potch anybody, nor would I. I will think twice, however, about with whom and when and under what conditions I send my toddler out walking. Or I will take him myself. One day, he will know what a street is and that it is dangerous and he will stay out of it. Until then, it is my responsibility to make sure that he is properly supervised when in the vicinity of the street.

I have children ranging from toddler to teens. If that makes me a young parent, then Smile Smile Smile.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 10:54 am
Wow I feel like I need to congratulate each and every one of u... To never potch your kids! Hmmmm u are all amazing parents!!
I can't say the same for myself though, maybe I should stop having kids altogether if u all think they're beig ruined with an occasional potch.
Nebach my poor kids
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:03 am
With my first, I used to give a little potch on the hand when she was naughty. I stopped when she started misbehaving and then holding out her hand for punishment. embarrassed

She's now 6 years old and I hope she doesn't remember that I used to potch her. Now we discuss what she did wrong and punish (if necessary) with loss of privileges or time-outs.

I don't potch anymore. They say that you learn from the mistakes you make with your first child. I hope so.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:07 am
How about you ask yourself this question. If you were taking care of someone else's daughter, and she did something stupid or even something dangerous, would you potch her?

Probably not, hopefully not. You'd find some other better way to deal with it. Why not do that for your own child?

There is never a good reason to potch a child. Find another way.

Believe it or not, the less words the better. A look of disapproval can be enough. A shake of the head, a shocked face, or making eye contact and saying "No" or "Stop" can be dramatic.

Disapproval of any kind is already a punishment. Why does it have to lead to torture sessions...lectures and time outs and threats and punishments???? Be short and to the point and then move on. (Isn't that what you would prefer if you had done something wrong?)

"Dont do that, do this" is my best parenting strategy. Sur mai ra, v'asai tov - stay away from doing wrong, go do something good instead.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:14 am
allrgymama wrote:
@gp2.0: see, and I think that that's even worse; it's teasing.

gp2.0 wrote:
Wow. If you think that putting a child on the steps is teasing, I'd think you'd be aware of how psychologically scarring it can be to make a child wait for a potch and then decide where they should be hit...that takes teasing up to a whole new level...


sitting on the steps watching other kids play because their behaving is cause & effect - the kid learns if I behave I too can play ...
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amother


 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:17 am
Imagine waiting to be hit while your father lines you all up with a belt in his hand. For no reason other than he is angry. Yeah waiting to be hit will make you tremble and pee in your pants. That's torture.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:19 am
@allrgymama

you cannot possibly think you can start a thread with tons of controversy & not get a wide variety of responses

stop getting defensive & attacking people !!!
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:19 am
I don't know about conditioning, but I do know that after awhile kids will learn which behaviors will result in praise and which behaviors will result in reproach. If my 12mo already knows to hesitate before reaching for my glasses and shaking her head no (before trying to grab them anyway) clearly very young kids can learn that some things are OK and some are not. (Poor impulse control will keep them from following rules all the time but that's where supervision comes in.)

An important aspect of the "holding instead of hitting" for running in the street that I completely forgot to mention above is heaping EXTENSIVE praise on the child while crossing the street. "OK we're nearly at the street now, we'll need to stop and hold hands like a big girl!" ... "Wow you are doing such a great job holding my hand and crossing the street!" ... "Wow what a big girl you are you crossed the whole street and held Mommy's hand the whole time!" So it's definitely the positive praise combined with the immediate consequence of losing independence that makes a difference.

As for why I never potch - it's because I've seen all too often how potching degenerates into a lazy parenting reflex. It starts with an occasional potch and slides downhill from there until kids are getting potched multiple times a day and laughing about it while being torn apart inside. Maybe some parents have amazing control and always know exactly when, how much and for what to potch. Me, I'd rather not play with fire at all.
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allrgymama




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:25 am
@5*Mom: It maybe took five potches for my daughter to learn last year that she is not allowed to set foot in the street. This year, she may set foot if she is holding a grown ups hand. If she forgets, she gets a look and knows exactly what she did wrong. I am quite clear that the potch is for going into the street because it is dangerous and not because she was more interested in something across the street.

Children are children and yes, they often get caught up in the moment and forget things that they 'know' or choose to push boundaries. But I know my children as best as I can and I know that DD #2 had the mental capacity to understand the lesson that I was teaching.

Isn't that what @MaBelleVie was saying? Teaching lessons when you feel your child is ready for them? I felt she was ready for that lesson last year. You can be totally amazed at my two year old's brains or disbelieve me and I'll direct you to the Morah that she's going to next year (where she will be the youngest by a couple of months, when the year starts) who told me months ago (shortly after her second birthday) that she could have started in the three year old group THIS year.

As far as toddlers on the sidewalk goes: I'm not giving you the physical specs of my block to explain why the children can play on the sidewalk and lawns. Again, I wouldn't do it in Brooklyn and I wouldn't do it on 14th street or North Lake Drive or a thousand other places. For my block, in my development, so long as a parent is keeping an eye on the child, there shouldn't be anything wrong with riding bikes/trikes on the sidewalk and playing on lawns.

@chanie8: I appreciate what you're trying to say, but that's kind of ridiculous. I'm allowed to have a different parenting method than other people on my block and they're allowed to have different parenting methods than me. And we're allowed to disagree with each other's methods without condemning one another. And if a child behaves in a manner that I consider to be inappropriate to me, I will speak with the child about why they can't do it and if they continue, then I will take them back to their parents and explain what is going on for their parents to make the decision of how to discipline them -- the same way that as an aware and involved parent I have the right to choose how to discipline MY children and if I feel they deserve a potch, then a potch is what they are going to get.

I don't want to come across as someone who potches their children frequently. I don't remember when the last time was (before two nights ago) that I potched DD #1. I certainly agree that, in most cases, there are other acceptable and preferable responses. The original question was that, within the context of my parenting style, if I would on rare occasion potch a child for chutzpadig or dangerous behavior (which in and of itself was NOT the topic of discussion), would there be a situation where my child could act so stupidly, or absent-mindedly or spaced out to also warrant a potch?

EDIT: @greenfire: PMing a user privately to politely ask that they stop implying you to be an abusive parent is not attacking users. I have been calm and rational in all of my responses to this post. A user choosing to take issue with that and bringing it to the forefront of a thread is certainly more of an attack in my book. I posed a question. If you didn't have the answer to the question, then you shouldn't have responded to it. The end.


Last edited by allrgymama on Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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sneakermom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:26 am
gp2.0 wrote:
Wow. If you think that putting a child on the steps is teasing, I'd think you'd be aware of how psychologically scarring it can be to make a child wait for a potch and then decide where they should be hit...that takes teasing up to a whole new level...


Exactly!
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:36 am
chani8 wrote:


Believe it or not, the less words the better. A look of disapproval can be enough. A shake of the head, a shocked face, or making eye contact and saying "No" or "Stop" can be dramatic.

Disapproval of any kind is already a punishment. Why does it have to lead to torture sessions...lectures and time outs and threats and punishments???? Be short and to the point and then move on. (Isn't that what you would prefer if you had done something wrong?)


This is so, so true. And it works. Kids don't need long-winded explanations. DD4 just yesterday said something I found disturbing. (Though with all the recent learning about haman and now the mitzris I'm not really surprised.) She said "I don't want a baby sister anymore. Let's kill her." I could have given her a potch for that, right? If I was the potching kind of mom. Instead here's what happened:

1) stating what was wrong: I said with a really sad look on my face "killing is not a nice thing to do. we are not allowed to kill people."
2) following up with empathy: "I understand you're upset because baby just tore your book, right?"
3) stating my disappointment: while shaking my head and looking very sad "but it makes me very sad to hear you say something like that, because killing is a bad thing to do."

At this point DD had tears in her eyes and was about to cry. All without a potch or punishment. I could see she regretted what she said and was upset that I was disappointed with her so there was no need for further punishment.

(I'm far from the perfect mom, believe me. Just recently I noticed that I've been saying "what is wrong with you" when I'm upset with her. That is something I need to stop doing ASAP. Parenting is not about one right or one wrong way - it's about constantly modifying your own behavior and rethinking your ways of dealing with child misbehavior to end up with the best possible outcome for your child's behavior.)
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:42 am
Gp, it's definitely a stage. My 4 yo has also been coming home and saying things like that, just out of the blue. I just look serious and say quietly, "it makes me very sad when you say something like that about your sister. It makes her feel bad too." Move on. At this point I just need to look in his direction to make him aware that I'm listening, and he catches himself.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 04 2014, 11:44 am
allrgymama wrote:
@greenfire: PMing a user privately to politely ask that they stop implying you to be an abusive parent is not attacking users. I have been calm and rational in all of my responses to this post. A user choosing to take issue with that and bringing it to the forefront of a thread is certainly more of an attack in my book. I posed a question. If you didn't have the answer to the question, then you shouldn't have responded to it. The end.


who else did you pm privately ... now that the cats out of the bag - I wonder ?! I found that to be a personal attack

the fact that you keep listing people and are argumentative to their responses is akin to defensive attacking

if you don't like my response or other responses - don't put the question out there

the answer remains

"When to potch?" ~ NEVER !!!
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