My 8 yr old ds refuses to daven

Posted: Mon, Aug 20 2012, 5:45 pm Post subject: my 8 yr old ds refuses to daven

when my dh wants to daven with my ds, my ds refuses and starts getting angry and trows a tantrum. At school he doesn't have a problem daving just at home he doesn't want to.

What is the best way for us to handle this? should we force him to? I know that forcing a kid to do something will always backfire.

Or should we leave him alone or ask for the minimal.

Gold Member Joined: Aug 23 2011 Posts: 1581

He's only 8. I wouldn't make a fuss about it.

Gold Member Joined: Jul 02 2010 Posts: 1416

Just keep modeling the behavior you want to see your children exhibit - so if you want him to daven, keep davening, and let him see DH go to shul too. Eventually, he'll copy that behavior - don't force it.

Executive Member Joined: May 14 2012 Posts: 416

How about making a tefillah chart for him and he gets a star for each time he davens and after a certain amount of stars he gets a prize?

Silver Member Joined: Nov 30 2010 Posts: 650

Firstly, try finding out why he dislikes davening. Maybe he finds it hard to read or hard to sit still, and you can help him with that.

Incentives are always better than threats, especially when it comes to things that we want our children to have positive feelings for. If rewarding doesn't work then you can explain to him that when something is hard for us, we should try taking baby steps. He can start by saying just a few tefillos until he feels ready to say more. It is important to get him into the habit of davening every day, even if it's just for a few minutes. I would insist that he say the basics, and if he refuses then at that point I would give consequences.

MY 9 yrs old ds doesnt like to daven either...he doesnt give me a hard time but it only takes him 2 min so I know he is not saying anything. His Rebbi told me to let it go until he is in lke 6th grade. BTW he also refuses to go to shul with my dh. Every week dh comes home and says so many boys with the father's and not him. I dont push it.

Silver Member Joined: Jun 12 2011 Posts: 707

Is this about davening or is this about going to shul so that he can be positively "compared" to his cousin? One of the hardest things I find about Chinuch is separating the Chinuch issues from the parent's own self-consciousness about "doing a good job as a parent". Being compared to his cousin is not a factor in what is appropriate for him developmentally.

As far as the Chinuch piece, I definitely would not force an 8 year old to go to shul -- I think that would definitely backfire down the line. You can try prizes, charts, etc, and if it works, great, if not back off. I ideally probably would require him to daven some minimum amount at home (even if it's just Brachos), but if it looks like that would be a major battle, I wouldn't even insist on that. 8 is still very young, and tefilla is a challenge even for many older kids. He is davening nicely in school, so he is learning how to daven and getting used to the concept. Creating resentment and fights over one day a week seems to be to be a great examle of "yatzah scharo bhefseido".

Platinum Member Joined: Feb 20 2009 Posts: 7672

Great post, m! I know a couple of people who forced their kids to do things to uphold the parents own image (like go to shul, wear certain clothing) and their kids now hate both Judaism and their parents.

Turning religion into a power struggle or a negative experience is a terrible, terrible idea. If you are truly seeking to do the best thing for the child, you will make religion sweet and pleasant. Doing otherwise is a tragedy.

[quote="m in Israel"]Is this about davening or is this about going to shul so that he can be positively "compared" to his cousin? One of the hardest things I find about Chinuch is separating the Chinuch issues from the parent's own self-consciousness about "doing a good job as a parent". Being compared to his cousin is not a factor in what is appropriate for him developmentally.

As far as the Chinuch piece, I definitely would not force an 8 year old to go to shul -- I think that would definitely backfire down the line. You can try prizes, charts, etc, and if it works, great, if not back off. I ideally probably would require him to daven some minimum amount at home (even if it's just Brachos), but if it looks like that would be a major battle, I wouldn't even insist on that. 8 is still very young, and tefilla is a challenge even for many older kids. He is davening nicely in school, so he is learning how to daven and getting used to the concept. Creating resentment and fights over one day a week seems to be to be a great examle of "yatzah scharo bhefseido".[/quote

Hi op here what does yatzah scharo bhefseido mean? the issue is not going to shul the issue is that he refuses to daven at home. when he does go to shul its only on shabbos morning. and I never have to force him to go to shul, he likes going.

Other wise thanks for the good ideas. I hope they help. I spoke to my sil whose a teacher and she said that I should speak to his rebbi and get him to speak to him about davining. he comes to our house everyday to learn with him so ill see if he can daven with him then to.

Thanks for all the good ideas.

Silver Member Joined: Jun 12 2011 Posts: 707

[quote="amother"]

[quote="m in Israel"]

OTOH, boys that are not forced to doven do not. I have a friend whose older boy she did not force to doven. They always said he is too young to force. They said he will doven when he is ready. He is 17 & does not attend shul although his parents are very religious. They forced their younger son since he was 3 to go. He is now 10 and goes all the time.

I have another friend same issue. They did not force the boy and he had no interest in going. He is being bar mitzvahed soon. When do these parents expect it to happen.

My kids are not given a choice. They are not given a choice about shabbos, kosher, religious schools, brochas,

Platinum Member Joined: Feb 20 2009 Posts: 7672

If you want a child to do something that he doesn't want to do, you can reward him for doing it. You get the same outcome, except it actually develops positive associations instead of negative associations.

What would be the benefit of forcing over rewarding?

Executive Member Joined: Mar 14 2010 Posts: 487

I agree with those who said don't force him or punish him.

I think the important thing is to discuss with him why we daven. That Hashem gives us so many good things in life and we have to say thank you. Just like if you buy him an ice cream or a toy or make him dinner, he needs to thank you.

The words in the siddur don't mean anything to him. Maybe you can suggest for him a minimum - a few important things to say like brachot and Shema - and then tell him the rest is between him and Hashem but we are supposed to every day thank Hashem for something, ask Him for something, and praise Him for something.

I think at his age, a concrete reason for tefilla and connection to it is more important than what words and how many of them he actually says.

Active Poster Joined: Nov 16 2011 Posts: 25

I wouldn't force it. My now 14 year old did the same thing when he was 8. At scholl he always got the est davener prize, at home he refused. I tried charts etc. Nothing doing. As he got older and he learned more at school he knew that a boy just has to daven. Once he became bar mitzvah, he takes his daveneing seriously, and at shul is alwaya called up to daven from the omud! I always get compliments about his daveneing:)
I chuckle to myself - "if only you knew what a struggle it was when he was younger"

Focus on all the mitzvos that he does do and be a good example.

I think some kids, even young kids, are naturally more drawn to davening for various reasons - they enjoy words, reading, singing, being part of the group, expressing their feelings to Hashem, connecting to Hashem, showing their pride in being Jewish, being a leader, etc... many reasons. Some kids are just naturally more spiritual.

Those kids will happily daven at school and at home and at shul and their parents will probably not understand the parents of the kids who do NOT enjoy davening.

Lots of kids don't enjoy davening, also for various reasons - they have a hard time with reading, looking at text for a long time, singing and noise annoy them, standing up tires them, sitting still makes them antsy, they have trouble concentrating, they're not motivated by being with a group, they're not able to conceptualize Hashem enough to want to connect or to have real feelings about anything spiritual, etc...

I think there's an age range - probably up through the teen years - where these personality traits and preferences aren't likely to change, and while parents can do things to control their children's behavior to some extent (more so for younger kids, less so for teens), they are unlikely to be able to make something click inside the child if it's not already there.

So kids who are resistant to or apathetic about davening, even past bar mitzvah and into the teens, probably will not benefit from being "motivated" with incentives or threatened with consequences.

It's really hard for parents - especially fathers!! But it's important to think long-term, and also to be practical as well as compassionate in the short-term.

Parents do need to set the example they hope their children will follow. That means not only meeting their obligations in mitzvot, but also doing these things with joy and talking about how they are part of the whole picture of living a Jewish life.

Parents also need to respect that kids and teens are not fully developed and many will not have an appreciation for anything "spiritual" even if they do meet their obligations. There's a reason why so many baalei teshuva figured out what they wanted out of their spiritual life when they were in college or older. And many more don't find that meaningful connection until they are much further along in life.

Just because kids are born into a frum family, that doesn't mean they automatically "feel it." They probably will, somewhere down the line - years from now when they are adults. Maybe not until they have a child of their own. So for parents of children who aren't conforming to expectations and hopes... the goal really becomes to NOT KILL the love the child has for his family, his community, and life as he knows it - which includes a whole lot of Jewish life even if he personally is not really davening (yet).

Then that child can use that love of family & the Jewish community and build on it later to create his own connection with davening and with Hashem when he is developmentally ready to do that.

I don't think there's any shortcut. If you have a kid who loves to daven, consider yourself lucky that the path may be easier. It's a beautiful thing to see a child who really loves Hashem and wants to daven. But for other parents, stay positive and loving and talk about the importance and beauty of davening and other mitzvot - IY"H those messages will be the building blocks of your child's future connection.