What's your opinion on sleep training /cio?

Senior Member Joined: Jan 01 2008 Posts: 162

http://wbztv.com/seenon/Dr.Richard.Ferber.2.574406.html
Here you go.

Active Poster Joined: Feb 08 2012 Posts: 99

http://www.aish.com/f/p/48916177.html

NIGHTTIME CARE

Although our children always need our sensitive responses, they especially need them at night. The combination of drowsiness and darkness makes children feel especially vulnerable. We have to make special efforts to be attentive to nighttime distress.

The effect of ignoring children's nighttime cries was tragically illustrated during the only modern, cultural experiment in which children were voluntarily secluded from their parents during sleeping hours. Beginning in the 1930s, parents living on Israel's secular kibbutzim elected to sleep their children away from home in communal children's facilities. The small staff size at these facilities made it impossible to attend promptly to every cry, but the early pioneers of the kibbutz movement hoped that their children would adjust to the less attentive arrangement.

A barrage of studies found that the graduates of kibbutz children's facilities suffered disproportionately from a range of psychological disorders, including attachment deprivation traumas, major depression, schizophrenia, low self-esteem, and alcohol and drug problems. By 1994, more than half of all children on Israeli kibbutzim exhibited symptoms and psychopathologies associated with insecure attachment.

Professor Carlo Schuengel, an investigator from Leiden University (The Netherlands), echoed the findings of many earlier researchers when he identified the cause of the psychological disintegration kibbutz children experienced: "Although collective sleeping may allow for sufficient monitoring of children's safety, it leaves children with only a precarious and limited sense of security."

As data poured in revealing the damage that had been done by children's sleeping facilities, kibbutz leaders abandoned the experiment. The last of the kibbutzim's 260 children's facilities was finally closed in 1998.

CRY-IT-OUT?

Frighteningly, some children in the West are being exposed to just such inappropriate child-care arrangements today in their own homes. The "cry-it-out" sleep-training program offers parents an effective alternative to the hassles of nighttime childcare. Behavioral psychologists behind the plan have demonstrated that infants whose nighttime cries are not answered really do stop crying within as little as three days. Although the program has been touted as "a new, revolutionary method for teaching children to sleep through the night," it constitutes no more than a revival of the disastrous kibbutz experiment, and what it really teaches children is despair.

Ignoring a child's nighttime cries might eventually produce quiet, but it does not cultivate security.

People are attracted to the cry-it-out method for the same reason they are attracted to many other destructive childraising techniques: It offers a quick behavioral fix. However, intelligent educators take into account the long-term effects of every childraising strategy. Ignoring a child's nighttime cries might eventually produce quiet, but it does not cultivate security.

Thus, children trained with the cry-it-out method were found to wake more often throughout the night, sleep less efficiently, and walk around with more daytime tiredness than children attended to by their parents. Moreover, children deprived of nighttime comfort are at risk for all the psychopathologies discovered among children who slept in kibbutz children's homes.

Active Poster Joined: Feb 08 2012 Posts: 99

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out

Many years ago, my very normal 11 year old DS began acting strangely one day. Within a few days he was TOTALLY out of reality. It was VERY FRIGHTENING. He was afraid that the vacuum hose was a snake. He didn't believe that I was really his mother. He thought his siblings were trying to poison him so he refused to eat and lost a lot of weight. He used to fall asleep very quickly and now would not fall asleep until 3-4am. He would keep coming out of bed telling me weird things like someone was trying to do surgery on him or throw knives through the window at him.

After months of visits to psychologists and psychiatrists, we discovered absolutely no trauma or abuse.

This was my oldest child, the one my MIL had convinced me to let CIO. And I did. When he was SIX WEEKS old (MIL's directions) I let him cry for hours for almost a week until he stopped waking up at 3am.

I never did CIO to any of my other kids, because I grew up beyond the age of 20 and learned that I don't need to heed my MIL's advice. And I will never do it again. And I firmly believe that DS' anxiety was the result of the CIO when he was a baby.

Silver Member Joined: Jan 09 2011 Posts: 911

wow! to the poster above- I am so sorry! a 6 week old baby should never be left to cry(though none of us can know why your son has anxiety, that must have been traumatic for both of you).

with that said, I am a believer in the cio system as it helped my babies sleep thru the night at 3 months old and I saw no negative effects from that. however, I had a set system- and it wasnt simply to let them cry until they fell asleep. I didnt start training them for sleep until 3 months and it took about a week to take hold. in one week they went from sleeping just a few hours at a time every night, to sleeping 10 hours straight! I gave them a routine and they knew what to expect every day. when it came time that they were old enough not to need feedings at night any more, I helped them learn how to fall back asleep on their own when they woke up by letting them cry for a few minutes, giving them a chance to self soothe, at which point I went in to comfort them, pat them on the back, show them I was there, and then left again. usually after just 10 minutes or so they were sleeping again- in a few days they were waking just for a moment or so and putting themselves back to sleep. since then, my children have continued to sleep for 12 hours a night straight. when they wake up, they dont cry but are able to soothe themselves back to sleep. they are well rested and happy and dont cry before or during naps and nighttime sleep. I believe in cio when it is done correctly, at the correct time, for the right child. I would never let a child younger than 3 months old cry at night, and I wouldnt rob my child of learning how to self soothe past that age either.

Platinum Member Joined: Apr 12 2010 Posts: 5871

I am totally for CIO.
Like notinNJmommy once my child is fed, changed, clean, calm etc then it is time for bed. I know there is nothing else he needs.

I also know the difference in his cries if he is screaming because he is tired but he wants me to hold him or if he is in pain/stuck etc.

I also would not leave him screaming more than 10minutes at a time without going in to comfort him (recommended).

I ALSO think that as someone mentioned here, many people who say CIO is bad etc etc have either never tried it or don't think it is what it really is.

I have nothing against people who don't do it for whatever reasons they have. I am against people who tell me my child will be permanently ruined forever and ever because I let him get some sleep and into a schedule!
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Platinum Member Joined: Feb 20 2009 Posts: 7938

Platinum Member Joined: Apr 12 2010 Posts: 5871

He screamed in total for 45minutes but I checked on him in between to calm him down and lay him back down.
I am sorry that was not clear in the other thread.

And I just realized this thread is another old thread that emunah restarted Laughing

its from 2008!!!!

Gold Member Joined: Apr 04 2012 Posts: 2350

Silver Member Joined: Jan 09 2011 Posts: 911

Platinum Member Joined: Apr 12 2010 Posts: 5871

What I have found so far repeated in many places that are points I want to make:

"Ferber says that a baby who's given lots of attention and love during the day can be left alone at night without suffering lasting harm.

"A young child cannot yet understand what is best for him, and he may cry if he does not get what he wants," Ferber writes. "If he wanted to play with a sharp knife, you would not give it to him no matter how hard he cried, and you would not feel guilty or worry about psychological consequences. Poor sleep patterns are also harmful for your child and it is your job to correct them."

"Supporters of the Ferber Method believe that the process of teaching a child to sleep on his own encourages independence. It has also proven to be highly effective in reducing nighttime wakefulness in babies, resulting in better sleep for everyone.

Ferber�s method was designed to avoid unnecessary crying and to provide comfort to the baby. In the 2006 revised edition of his book, Dr. Ferber adds more flexibility to his method. He states that a wide range of approaches to sleep may be needed and that parents must also consider what is best for their families."

"It is all the love, affection, and care you give him all day, day-in and day-out, that builds the relationship between mother/father and child. THAT is what is important. Just as your child might cry and scream he can�t put a fork in an outlet or eat a cookie before dinner, he does not really know what is best for himself and he trusts you to do what�s best for him. YOU ARE NOT MAKING HIM CRY YOU ARE LETTING HIM, and it�s an important distinction as he grows into a toddler and young child. Just remember, sleep deprivation is no better for him as it is for you!

One other thing to keep in mind is not to project your feelings onto your child. Your guilt might make you feel that she feels abandoned, when in fact the true reason she could be crying is that she is tired and simply would rather be asleep and is upset that you aren�t replacing that pacifier 10 times per night anymore or rocking him to sleep or whatever other sleep association you typically provide for her."

I don't have time to do more research right now, my ds needs me.

Platinum Member Joined: Apr 12 2010 Posts: 5871

ps: really that post does not belong in this thread I am only posting it here because this is where yunchkup asked me for research.

I also want to point out to you yunchkup, that I am not against you because I feel guilty or bad or anything like that. I made my baby's, mine and dh life better by doing what I believed in. I am against you because you are so one sided you cannot believe someone would go against the "research" you did! And you seem to come across as hating and despising anyone who could dare do something so WRONG, but that is your opinion and no one has to agree with it. It is disgusting to so openly curse out parents who do something that you don't agree with. I am just trying to make you see two sides of the coin but I guess its not working.

Diamond Member Joined: Dec 21 2009 Posts: 3193

Gold Member Joined: Sep 12 2011 Posts: 2100

I'm not a supporter of CIO as a shita but that doesn't mean that I've never let my children cry themselves to sleep. What concerns me is when parents do things "by the book" and don't pay attention to their individual child's individual cues. They lose their instincts for their child and his needs. There are different kinds of cries. A parent must learn how to identify and interpret her own child's cries. There are cries that increase harmful stress hormones in the body, cries that must be responded to, and cries that actually release tension. You gotta know your child and there is no book that can do this for you.

Diamond Member Joined: Jun 29 2011 Posts: 3132

Infants, babies, are IMHO not yet mature enough to schedule. They should eat and sleep when their bodies say to do that. If a very young kid wants something, be it food, water, repose or some comforting human presence, my opinion would be to not argue and give it to him or her. A well cuddled kid - not all cuddling is a big dramatic deal, just knowing that you are there and interested in him - will not have a lot to scream about and will not do much screaming. Of course every kid has to cry sometimes about something. But a kid who is in a high furious temper is not going to find sleep easy; he's too worked up. It's intelligent for him and for YOU to not let him get into that state. How? By meeting his needs. Sometimes just making eye contact is enough.

It is impossible to spoil anybody who isn't a year old yet. One hundred percent impossible.

Nobody lies yet about their needs at that age. If he says he needs something, he really does need it. It's not like trying to get a bigger piece of cake or a mink coat or something, where you might just WANT it but not really need it. No, the young ones truly do need it, and should get it, whatever it is. You will be ahead in the long run, because you will have a reasonable, easygoing child who thinks life is basically a good idea. That's just EASIER to have around.

You are going to be sharing a kitchen and bathroom with this person for quite a few years. Think about it. Their level of insecurity and twitchiness is going to be part of your life for a long, long time. GIVE him what he wants in infancy. You are going to be happy later.

I am TOO speaking from very personal experience. The teen years were no problem whatsoever. Why? Because I paid up front, in infancy. It's just like money: pay up front, early, it's cheaper.

A kid whose salt-to-water ratio inside is going wrong is going to squall to his last breath: he "understands" his life is in danger. It is. A kid whose need for calories to keep warm enough, same thing. A kid who is "concerned" he isn't loved by his tribe is going to take that issue just as seriously. A kid who must, must suck, but whose stomach is full, is going to do very well with a Nuk pacifyer and sleep smiling around it, so cute. A kid who must, must suck but is only offered more food will holler until somebody understands his need, or he falls asleep from sheer exhaustion, or the neighbors call the cops, which ever comes first. A too full stomach hurts. So he doesn't want food; he has enough. But he must, must suck. So let him, the poor fellow. Even a pinky finger is better than nothing.

You will get better care when it's your turn in the bassinet, decades from now.

Always remember: it will be YOU in the bassinet someday. HE will be on the phone about to his stockbroker or something and will find YOU annoying, expensive, smelly and troublesome. You will get back what you put out, with him, so many years ago. What goes around, comes around.

A good mantra is "gas? hunger? fatigue?" and "when did he eat last?" the hours fly by fast and you realize, oh yes, I guess he's hungry. Again.

Your reward will be much later. I am getting that now. I worked for it. It's nice.

A good relationship makes teenagehood easier, not necessarily easy.

Yes, a child under 1 can ask for something unneeded or even bad. My 7 month old really shrieks, yells, cries for anything I have in my plate, including raw meat or raw egg or whatever I CANNOT give him, and certainly couldn't give him when he started asking for it.

It doesn't mean one should CIO, but obviously a 1 year old can have a want instead of a need.

Not all babies will accept a pacifier.

It is not healthy to give so the kids give back. Let's concern ourselves about our parenting, and let's hope the kids keep kibud av vem (we have to daven we never need them to act as our parents) and treat THEIR kids right.
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"You will have many many children and make successful shidduchim beh", rebbetzin Esther Jungreis
"It's all cultural, disagree respectfully", me

Diamond Member Joined: Jun 29 2011 Posts: 3132

Well, he can't know you are eating something that wouldn't be good for him. He "figures" it's good for you so it must be good for him. He sees you eating it and wants to do what you do.

Don't hold me to the dot of 12 months. It's been a long time. But a one year old probably just wants what he needs. Maybe he doesn't need your earrings or keys, but he does need something noisy and shiny to fiddle with.

Executive Member Joined: Jun 24 2012 Age: 22 Posts: 453

I don't really know what cio is because my kids somehow figured out by themselves that they have to sleep at night, my baby is currently 4,5 months old and sleeps from 8pm till 6.30 am he falls asleep by himself without crying. he does it since he is 6 weeks old. during the day I can let him cry abit before he falls asleep. my daughter slept from 12am till 6 from 2 weeks old...then she started to sleep from 11 then 10 and so on...never real problems of waking up from teething but when she used to wake up I never fed her, not to harm her schedule. she also fell asleep by herself so there wasnt a need of letting her cry.

I'm often on La Leche League groups these days, and many have a kid or two who went through a nursing strike in their first year. The child did not want the breast anymore (possibly, only solids), and still we all agree milk is a very important part of nutrition for the baby at least until 1, and ideally if possible it should be the breast.
We have to weight carefully whether it's want or need, and if it's want whether we can give in or not.