Do children Menachem Avel other Children?

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

I am unaware what the halacha is, so please don�t be judgmental.

Rachmanu l�itzlan, a woman in my community passed away suddenly over shabbos. She left 7 orphans. The youngest child is 8 and a classmate of my child.

Does an 8yo even sit shiva? Is it appropriate to take another 8yo to be menachem avel the 8yo? I don�t really know the family beyond our children being in the same class. I want to be mechanech my child in this inyan but in an age appropriate manner.

If one does so, how do you discuss with your child before hand?

I will add that my 8yo is already a super anxious kid � when my FIL passed away suddenly at the beginning of the summer she was a total wreck and very anxiety ridden.

I will admit I am concerned she will worry that something will happen to me or either of her fathers chas v�shalom.

I would for sure like to have a discussion with her about it so she treats her classmate appropriately and in a chessedik manner. I don�t want it to be the elephant in the room.
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Platinum Member Joined: Nov 01 2009 Posts: 8222

I sat shiva when I was 7. My classmates came.
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Diamond Member Joined: Dec 18 2005 Posts: 2943

I dont know the answer to your question but will share my mistake so you can learn from it.
my dd's friends mother passed away when they were 8 yo. I did take her to be menachem avel and it was a huge mistake. three of the yesomim were teenage girls. so the house was FULL of dramatic teenagers. very loud, very overwhelming. the father's entire family was there, a very large family from a different country. very loud in a language we did not understand. I'm just setting the scene here.
the minute we walked into the house, the little girl was on her way out with her aunt. apparently 8 yo's do not have to sit the way kids over bar/bat mitzva do and the aunts were keeping her busy and distracted. so we walk in and the girl gets all mad at my dd because now she thinks she cant go out with her aunt. so she says 'baila! I dont want you here now! cant you see I'm BUSY'
my dd fell apart crying. the father saw and got up and came over to apologize so now I feel horrible because really, the guy has enough to deal with, so I say a quickie 'hamakom' and high tail it out of there.
my dd did send a picture and a letter to her friend in the mail but the friendship was never the same. the girl transferred to a different local school and my dd was not able to get over those remarks even though I tried to explain what the situation was to her.

so my advice...if you do decide to take your child, go yourself first to get a sense of what kind of shiva house it is. then ask someone (who ever is 'running the shiva') if they think its a good idea to bring her and make up a good time to come.

in terms of being mechanech in this area, you could also let her know that YOU are going and discuss why you are going. she is really young and I dont think there is an expectation of young children to be able to do this mitzva even as chinuch.

in any case, you will need to discuss the death with your child especially if she's anxious. she's bound to hear about it sooner or later. best she hears it from you.

Diamond Member Joined: Sep 17 2009 Posts: 3975

If your child can emotionally handle it I suggest she go. Years from now her friend will remember people coming.

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

I am also interested to hear how people talk about death with their small children, from a frum perspective.

wen I was 8 or 9 years old a good friend of mine's mother got very sick. the whole school year we were very aware of how sick she was, we wud make her refuah sheliema signs, we wud do more mitzvos so she cud get beter.
at then her mother nebach was niftar. I still dont think at the time any of us really understood, but our teachers felt we should go be menachem avel, and they were the ones to take us.
I remember it as clear as yesterday. we went to her house,it was verrrrry overwhelming with tons of adults, our teacher told us what to say, adn then our friends said do u want to go play outside. that was it.
we played otuside for the rest of the day, just as 8 year olds wud.
later on, as high schoolers, she told us it was a huge help that we came, even thgh we were so little, bc it took her mind off of it, bc she really wasnt mature enough to actually sit the whole day.
p.s. this girl also had older sibs, and they were thrilled that we came, they thght it was thoughtful and helpful.

IME, it is best if the school organizes trips - checks which times are best, and sends a group of children, chaperoned by a mother, to talk/play/sit for a while, then escort them out and send another group soon. It's far more organized, can be tailored to the family's specific time requests, makes it easier on everyone by not having it one-on-one, and gives the school an opportunity to address the children first about dos and don'ts.

Is this feasible? Can you speak to your daughter's teacher and see if she can arrange something?

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

I think it really depends on the family. Some families an 8 year old doesnt sit at all. Some sit with the rest of the family members. My 8 year old Niece who was sitting shiva didn't really sit at all but she still received calls from friends so maybe you can call to ask if perhaps she is leaving the house and your daughter is friends with her maybe she wants to come over and play?

I know I went to the store and bought her projects to do to keep her busy. So maybe you should call the house and speak to whomever answers the phone. Usually an aunt or other close relative is there managing the situation. If you are able to get involved it would help the older siblings and father by keeping the 8 year old busy not so much to menachem avel as much as to offer support or help.

Hatzlocha may you only know of Simchos!

An 8 yo may not sit shiva, but she certainly suffered a loss.
I agree that you should assess the situation first, and maybe make an 'appointment' when would be the best time to come.
If your DD can't handle it, it's a nice idea to send her friend a nice self made postcard or something.
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I sat shiva when I was 10 and it meant a lot to me that my classmates came. It was during the school year, so my school brought groups of 2-3 girls at a time to my house. In sure they spoke with the girls before. And I also remember which girls came on their own, after school, not just because they were missing class.
But I also remember the girl who came, with school, and as soon as she walked in said let's go downstairs and play a game. That was highly inappropriate! With the rest of the girls, though I didn't talk about my father, I showed them pictures of him. It could be that an 8 year old is not as mature, but for me, it was the best thing that my friends came
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Moderator Joined: Aug 14 2005 Posts: 4549 Location: Ohio

I took my daughter when I went to be menachem avel for a woman who lost her mother. The bubbie had been like a second mother my friend's little girl, lived with them, etc. My daughter was in the same class with the little girl who had lost her bubbie. I asked in advance and went late in the week when there weren't so many people. The mother said it was a big help.
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No they really don't have the maturity imo

Gold Member Joined: Feb 15 2011 Posts: 1115 Location: UK

It should be pre arranged maybe by the school or by one of the parents if school hasn't begun yet. The person arranging should find out when is a good time, if the girl is up to visitors in general and co-ordinate that only 2 girls come at a time 2 is a good number as it will make it more comfortable and more will be too overwhelming.

Gold Member Joined: Feb 15 2011 Posts: 1115 Location: UK

It should be pre arranged maybe by the school or by one of the parents if school hasn't begun yet. The person arranging should find out when is a good time, if the girl is up to visitors in general and co-ordinate that only 2 girls come at a time 2 is a good number as it will make it more comfortable and more will be too overwhelming.

Gold Member Joined: Dec 24 2009 Posts: 2433

I spoke with my child and she doesn't even remember that the child sitting shiva is in her grade.

I spoke with my mashpia who said not to push my child to go at this point because my child is very anxious in general and I do not need to put her through additional anxiety unless she is close with the child.

But all your advice is very helpful nonetheless.

Thank you.