Can A Man Justify Not Supporting a Non-Betulah Wife?

Oh, and the way he got around child support is we agreed on Joint Custody. This worked out better for us because we have boys, he's a native Israeli, better able to deal with issues of school etc...so therefore, he got out of paying child support. It was a mutual agreement, we decided not to have a custody battle, because those can get ugly beyond words, and it was already ugly enough. He wanted to full apartment (which I inherited and was nearly paid in full) and the process was held up a year because I wouldn't give it to him. In the end, he is living there, and we will split it when the kids are adults.

FYI standard practice in Israel is that when a woman gets divorced she signs away any rights to anything owing her from her ketuva and so it is all meaningless anyway.

Diamond Member Joined: Feb 28 2010 Posts: 4861

For a woman's 2nd marriage the word "metrachta" is used instead of betula.

didnt read all the replies of this thread, but I was not a virgin and spoke to the mesader kedushin about this and he said it dsoesnt matter, I write I am a betula no matter what. and that is what he reads. the embarrassment for a bride on her wedding day overrides the twisting of the truth. its between me and my husband. nobody ever needs to know.

as far as the sheet thing, I heard recently of a couple, in todays day and age that the father told the son to check the sheets after they consummated their marriage to make sure he wasnt "lied to". and im not sure if he (the father) needed to check them as well, but I do know that the father by his wedding night needed to show his parents the sheets. what a disgrace. an embarrassment to the new bride, who bleeds anyways? this is not judaism.

and regarding this. if the guys a schmuck, hell find every excuse in the book not to pay. dont matter what it is.

Active Poster Joined: Sep 12 2011 Posts: 61

According to one opinion in the Rambam, blood is only a sign of virginity if the woman is a נַעֲרָה (between 12 and 12.5 with simanim).

Beginner Joined: Jul 11 2012 Posts: 16

Interesting, luckily I did not learn some of this stuff till after I became a BT.

I also learned that it says in gemara that a Husband may divorce his wife without a Ketuba if for example, her breasts are too far apart. I don't know how I should feel about this.

Last edited by Isramom8 on Wed, Jan 02 2013, 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

To answer the original question, I have no doubt that "a jerk" could find "a way a way out rabbi" would agree to his jerky behavior. So what? This has no bearing on the accepted legal methods with which Jewish divorces are handled today.

Divorce seems to be frought with many messy and hurtful complications. I wouldn't blame the Torah for that.

Gold Member Joined: Mar 16 2009 Posts: 2287

A few things:

Betula means an unmarried woman and virgin. It's comparable to maiden, or Miss.
A woman who was previously married is not referred to as a betula, and a woman who converted is also referred to differently. No one is referred to as a zona!

The translation of "for your chastity" is a terrible translation! It's more about protecting the woman. Even today, it's often tougher for a divorced woman to find a hubby than for a woman who never married.

Anyway, yes, a woman who is not a virgin must tell her husband pre-marriage. If not, it could invalidate the marriage, in which case the hubby does not need to support her. He can claim that he was deceived on a major point. FYI a woman can also claim that about some things. The marriage would then be annulled, essentially, so no obligations in either direction.

Now, the main person who needs to know this is the husband. It is possible for him to still put 200 zuzim in the ketubah AFAIK.

Gold Member Joined: Feb 12 2012 Posts: 1024

If I hold like R Ahron Kotler "in the 5th hour", and I'm a Dutch Jew who only waits 1 hour . Can I eat a cheeseburger very slowly?

wow, I can't believe I'm reading this. I'm a giyoret and I was a betulah at the time of marriage. Why would a female ger automatically be presumed not to be....??? I have no idea what it says in my ketubah re the amount of 100 vs. 200zuz.

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7230

1. I need to correct the sheet checking thing. I don't know if you all believe rashi and the gemara and all that, but as far as I recall, rashi clearly clearly states that no one ever checked bed sheets. It just meant that if there was an accusation by the husband, the matter would be carefully looked into, as if they were checking bedsheets. Kind of like the eye-for-an-eye explanation. I can source this if you want.

2. The ketuba payment has supposedly been upped to be in tune with inflation and the times.

3. I would imagine the kesuba amount to be less for a nonvirgin. Viriginity is prized immensely in Judaism. For another horrid example, see the rambam's discussion on how a rape victim's father is compensated. He is paid by the perpetrator according to the value of the woman. Whether she is a virgin. Whether she is disabled, deaf, blind, mute, disfigured, or beautiful.

Wrap your mind around that one, eh?

Platinum Member Joined: Dec 27 2007 Posts: 7230

A female ger who was megayer after the age of 3 is automatically considered to have been promiscious and no longer a virgin. This is halacha.

She can request that her ketuba says giorta betulta.

Diamond Member Joined: Jan 14 2011 Posts: 2725

learning the halachos of kesubah and marriage and divorce can turn anyone off.

but the way I look at it, these halachos are just jewish laws, based on the times they were instated. when these things were being discussed thousands of years ago, women in general society had no rights at all and were considered property of their fathers, husbands, or even brothers or uncles. a man could treat his wife however he pleased, and if he was a ruthless monster he could abuse her and give her no food or clothing. the rabbanim at the time recognized the need to establish certain halachos to protect women, for example a husband has to support her with food and clothing, and pay a certain amount of support in the event of divorce. because without these halachos, in those days, if a man wanted to divorce his wife he threw her out and that was that. so these halachos sound awful today, because in today's social constructs (where's FS?) they are almost barbaric. but in those days, these halachos were the most humane of the time.

it used to be that a man could toss aside his wife because he grew tired of her, or wanted a younger wife, or whatever. and the old wife couldn't just go get a job or take care of herself. she would be destitute and live the rest of her life in misery and poverty. so the rabbanim made some rules which made sense according to their society: they established rules of when it would be okay to divorce a woman, and when it isn't justified. in our times, the whole concept of needing to justify divorce is nuts, partly because woman can support themselves, live on their own, and are not considered pariah's for being discarded by their husbands. but back then, a good rabbi would not just allow a man to divorce his wife for any old reason, so they set out reasons which sound crazy to us now but made sense back then.

virginity was highly valued a few thousand years ago. not just by jews but by all of society. so yes, according to the financial value of his new "property" (wife), a virgin would be worth more. sounds horrid today, because it is, but back then it was completely normal.

today, many of these halachos aren't applicable. and since we unfortunately do not codify any new halachos but instead make adjustments on individual basis (with rabbanic approval) based on old halachos, some things sounds awful, when they are really just archaic. they were normal when these laws were written. in fact, they were the most humane laws in all the world. so what are we to do? find rabbanim who understand today's society, and who know how to apply halacha to today's times. follow rabbanim who are humane according to today's standards, and understand halacha enough to know how to apply it. recognize that halacha is a very old set of jewish laws, not judaism itself, and although we must follow halacha with rabbinic guidance, it isn't the whole of judaism. daven for moshiach when we will once again have the power to adjust halacha to the times. be very supportive of those who are turned off by hearing archaic halachos and think it is representative of Hashem's compassion rather than understanding that it is a set of rules written hundreds of years ago to help jews live a Torah life in a barbaric world. take this lesson to heart and know that there are things we consider normal today that will be considered barbaric down the road. and ever be grateful to live in a society where women have equal rights and are no man's property.