Where shoudl we go?

Posted: Mon, Jul 23 2012, 9:16 pm Post subject: re: Where shoudl we go?

Oh okay, OP, that's good that it's not you asking about Beachwood, because although it's a lovely community it's not what you said you're looking for.

Regarding Wickliffe, pretty much everyone there is part of the yeshiva, that's true. People there are great, truly ovdei Hashem, I doubt that you would ever feel snubbed or out of it if you weren't part of the yeshiva. However maybe you would prefer CH if you feel it would be more comfortable for you. Just be aware that yeshivish OOT is very very different from chareidi Eretz Yisroel, it will certainly be culture shock. I live in CH and am very happy...but that's because I davka don't want to live a chareidi lifestyle....

Active Poster Joined: May 23 2011 Posts: 43

From what you are saying and what I have heard about detroit, both sound like they are the right type of place for us. Can anyone compare these two places for me? I have heard that they are similar...what are the differences?

You said that oot yeshivish is not israeli chareidi, I understand that but I am curious how you see the differences...do you mind elaborating?

Are there any communities on the east coast that would be comparable to cleveland/detroit???

Thanks for all of your help

Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2012, 12:17 am Post subject: Re: re: Where shoudl we go?

Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2012, 1:43 pm Post subject: re: Where shoudl we go?

Detroit is smaller than Cleveland. Very nice community. I prefer Cleveland because there are more choices for shiurim, friends, restaurants. However, Detroit's kosher grocery situation is better. One downside to Cleveland is that grocery shopping is annoying, there's no one-stop place to get everything you need. You have to shlep around to a few stores to get everything you need.

Regarding Detroit, we actually planned on moving there until we went to visit for Shabbos and realized that there's a very large Arab community there (centered in Dearborn). I felt more comfortable in Cleveland.

I don't know of anywhere on the East Coast that's comparable to Cleveland/Detroit. Agree with previous poster that Baltimore is probably the closest, but it's definitely much bigger.

Re: jobs, yes you have to have a good plan in place for parnassah before you come to Cleveland/Detroit. The job market is not booming. We actually moved here without a job and without a plan, but we were a young couple with just a baby. Your situation is different. The hot fields here are healthcare and biotech.

Re: yeshivish vs. chareidi, well the outlook is different, there are some very yeshivishe people who are similar to chareidi, but the majority of OOT yeshivishe people are more laidback then chareidim. Internet use (for adults) is generally accepted as long as you have a good filter. There's a wider range of acceptability in clothing, you can dress a little more casual, brighter colors, it's okay. Most people don't judge you. More casual--lots of people wear slinky skirts, crocs, and a snood to go shopping. (Some wouldn't.) Interaction with the secular world is not considered terrible, some girls go to college (while living at home), and some girls do online college (secular) degrees. Most men go to work after a while. Reading secular books is okay as long as they're appropriate. People are friends with modern people. I don't know--there's just more acceptance of other derechs, less of a sense that the world is black and white, less of a sense that you have to separate yourself from everything.

Platinum Member Joined: Mar 12 2009 Posts: 13339

[quote="ceo"][

From what I've heard-- Detroit and Cleveland are amazing places to live if you are on the more yeshivish side of things. ]

Do you mean, if you are yeshivish these are great places to live or that if you're not yeshivish don't think about it? Because I know one city and from what I know of the other, the former seems to be what you mean.

OOT yeshivish means a big range - from "serious yichus yeshivish would be comfortable in any yeshivish chareidi enclave in the world" to "wears denim and crocs, husband may not always wear white shirts but you can be sure there's a solid filter on the internet, editing of outside influences, and husband is very much kovea itim". Oh, and with lots of BTs around. (But you'd never guess! Razz

)

Oh, and Dearborn's not seen as a biggie. Detroit also has a large Chaldean - Iraqi Christian - population so there's lots of Arabic even outside of Dearborn.
_________________
The righteous praise and honor people for every good quality that is found in them while the wicked seek out faults in others to pull them down, even if they repented those deeds. (Rabbeinu Yonah, from Partners in Kindness)

Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2012, 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: re: Where shoudl we go?

Platinum Member Joined: Mar 12 2009 Posts: 13339

Active Poster Joined: May 23 2011 Posts: 43

Thanks for all of this discussion, it is all ery helpful and nelightening for me! Detroit and Cleveland really do sound like our best options coming from EY, but they are so far from "home" (east coast).

There are parts of the israeli chareidi metality that I really love and will miss very much, on the other hand there are parts of the mentality that are a bit harsh (I am not sure if that is exactly the word I am looking for, but can;t think of a better one right now) that I will be happy to seperate myself from.

Posted: Wed, Jul 25 2012, 9:04 pm Post subject: re: Where shoudl we go?

It's interesting thinking about these categories. Pinkfridge, I was thinking about the term "balebatish," and I think I would consider the main difference between balebatish and yeshivish to be that balebatish types tend to have TV in the home and are comfortable with mixed-gender socializing (meaning married couples coming over to each other's homes or going out for a meal). Would you agree?

Re: the idea that Cleveland/Detroit are good if you're yeshivish, less good if you're not, I don't think that's true, at least in Cleveland. University Heights is a great mix of all different types, you have kollel families all the way to Conservadox, and people get along well. I think the overall tone of the neighborhood would be "balebatish." Cleveland Heights, the overall tone is "yeshivish," but with a huge variety along the yeshivishe spectrum, and there are plenty of people who would fit into the balebatish and modern categories as well. As noted before, Beachwood tends to be more modern, and Wickliffe is very yeshivish. So I think someone not yeshivish could move to University Heights and be very happy.

Re: Dearborn, I know people who live in Detroit aren't worried, it was just my visceral reaction, visiting there. I worry about radical elements and I just felt safer in Cleveland, but I've never heard anyone in Detroit feel that way.

Ceo, I'm curious about what you said about not reading secular books. When I said appropriate books, I meant a lot of nonfiction, like biographies and history, popular science, that sort of thing. Is that something you would read? I was surprised you said you and your friends don't do secular books. Are you on the East Coast by any chance? For example, in Monsey or Lakewood, regular yeshivishe people don't go into the public library to browse for books, generally. But here it's completely acceptable for ladies to go, although not men.

OP, if your family's on the East Coast, I think you should really think about Baltimore as an option. Very nice community. And the job market is better.

And, OP, I miss a lot of things about E"Y. The innocence and purity of the children, I loved how sheltered the children are. And the overall tremendous focus on ruchnius and growth. I miss it very much, even though I find the haskafic fit here better for me....

Active Poster Joined: May 23 2011 Posts: 43

Hi all,
Thanks for all mof your help. We are now looking seriously into Cleveland and Detroit and thinking about Baltimore as well.
Someone mentioned Monsey to us yesterday (a Rav that my husband trusts very much, but he is chassidish-is, so maybe not the same as our litvish eyes would see it). I know that South Monsey was mentioned in the past in this discussion. I never really thought about it because to me Monsey always sounded way to NY-ish for me, but I was only ever there once as a child.
So...what do you wonderful women think?

Active Poster Joined: May 23 2011 Posts: 43

I forgot to mention that one reason he thought of it for us is that he feels that with more choices of schools we will find what we are used more easily.

Gold Member Joined: Jan 20 2009 Posts: 1313

Monsey is very large and very spread out with a lot of choices. It may be hard to find a "community." Also housing can be very expensive and there are a lot of wealthy areas that are very materialistic that may not be what you are looking for.

Having lived in Monsey for 11 years and now Baltimore for 2, I think you would be happier in Baltimore.